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Weizi

Question regarding magic the gathering

17 posts in this topic

I've never played magic the gathering before, the only reason I'm somewhat families with it's mechanics was years ago when I was playing hearthstone and a friend of mine used to give me a rough summery of the basic rules and mechanics on how Magic works. 

 

That being said, during the 12 hour maintenance a week ago, I browsed the google play store to find a game to play instead of Shadowverse. I was looking for a card game similar to shadowverse/hearthstone and I was under the impression that there were a lot of games like them. To my surprise, I was wrong. Most of the card games are very different. I tried out a lot of games but didn't like any of them as much as shadowverse(despite the previous terrible balance of shadowverse). Eventually, I came across a game called "Eternal Card Game". As I was playing and learning the game, I eventually realized the game was just like magic. All the rules my friend told me about are in it, even the battle system and blocking and everything works the same way.

 

However, as I was playing, I eventually felt really irritated about the battle system and my biggest question was: Why does the defender get to choose the battle targets?

I was playing the "story mode", therefore, I didn't get to build my own deck and I was using a pre-built deck the computer gave me(no other choices). Due to summoning sickness and defender choosing the battle target, it became a game of total stalemate and a game of: Whoever attacks loses.

Basically, a portion of the game I played was like, you play a creature, pass, computer play a creature pass......endless loop....continued for 20+ turns(unless someone has a flying creature...I guess)...my impression was WTF....how can anyone enjoy this? How is any aggro deck viable with a rule like this? Does every aggro card have spell/effect immunity? Because that's the only way I see them viable under these rules. 

 

To be fair, I did not get to build my own deck, so I did not get to choose what I would use, but having played those games, I would probably put A BUNCH OF CREATURE KILLING SPELLS INTO MY DECK...Seriously, I can't stand that kind of long stalemate after stalemate with both player having 10+ creatures on the board every turn and just pass...and if this is the norm....that's definitely not the game for me. Of course, the decks that I have been given had no AOE and very little removal. I thought of trying to rush the opponent down a few times, but soon realized, as soon as turn 1 - 2, you immediately get into unfavorable trades if I dared to attack, therefore, impossible to prevent the game from getting into such stalemate. Then knowing what would happen and played "OPTIMALLY" was forced into stalemates game after game........I ended up just uninstalling the game....without finishing the story mode of every characters....I would feel terrible even when I eventually won the games.

 

Is there any tip that I do not know of to prevent such stalemates from happening? Do you think such rules of combat with the blocking and stuff is good for the game?

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Hmm on one hand, I do find Eternal to be incredibly slow, though enjoyable, but like you, I’ve never played mtg, but from my impressions, Defender choosing is great because it means someone trying to play as the aggressor has to focus more on the synergy than on the base power and effect, like, I have a Minotaur deck in Eternal, using Green+purple, my greens have the high health, and defensive abilities, my purples are there to then buff them, almost continuously, since when one gore horn is played, it buffs everything else +2 attack, then it dies, but it goes back into the deck, to rebuff, so what starts off as a 0/7 wall, becomes a stronger n stronger attacking force, you will basically never get through, can’t even really get rid of the buffs either since they get retained if you destroy+ress or they get returned to hand. :) 

On the other hand, I can see why people that prefers attacker choice would dislike it, but you only need a bit of thought Input not like ye old aggro blood n aggro sword where you just shove in what can do the most quickest. 

Edited by Othello

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The main benefit to choosing blocks rather than choosing targets is that it makes the control playstyle much more viable.  The huge downside on the other hand is that it makes boards extremely prone to stalemating.

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Magic and Eternal are more about the value of the effects of the cards. If you wanna attack them you should put a lot cards that get adventages when they attack or get some type of evasion. If you wanna play control/combo you pick your card in based of the effects that they offer to you cause your oponent cant go easily agains them. For example a 1/1 that draw a card whenever your oponents draw a card sounds pretty bad for HS or SV but in magic that card needs to be answer with spells (its still bad cause its a 1/1 and almost all the damage spell will kill him) some decks dont run damage spells so sometimes he will NEVER died.

 

The only way to prevent stalemates in this type of games is go aggro or go beathdown/ramp. Force your oponent to choose between trading his value minions or take damage. That is in essence what an aggro player need to do.

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In standard Magic is mostly who got the best tempo. In Legacy it's pretty much who have a deck full of counter or automatic win at turn 3-4 (egg decks, worst experience I ever had).

Aggro ? Those do exist but with spells instead of creatures, mostly red decks.

In all case, this is a game which just feel so outdated in economy (crap expensive) and which contains so many cards you either bank for legacy or bank even more in standard to have a proper deck which is rotating out quickly enough.

When you played HS/Shadowverse where legendaries will always cost the same regardless of their power and nerfs do exist, Magic ain't anything but a bad game. Eternal might just be better.

Edited by Kinxil

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@Weizi, it all comes to mechanics. Attacker's choice, like SV and HS, are great for quick games that don't have instants/interrupts. Defender's block tend to be better in other scenarios.

In MtG, stalemates like the one you experienced are rare, because you can play instants during the battle phase. You attack, even if you would end up with unfavourable trades, your opponent blocks, and then boom! You either buff your creatures, bounce back his blockers, or play some other dirty tricks. In fact, when you see your opponent attacking even in unfavourable scenarios, you know he's got some tricks under his sleeves, and you have to be careful, and sometimes the best trade is not the best way to block. You can even bluff, and attack with unfavourable trades just to let your opponent think you have some instants in hand, and thus making him do unfavourable trades instead. This works well especially when you're playing very well known decks and your opponent expects you to have certain cards in hand, even if you don't.

I didn't like Eternal just because they used the same battle system but without instants. And yeah, it can really become quite stale.

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5 minutes ago, midgardsormr said:

@Weizi, it all comes to mechanics. Attacker's choice, like SV and HS, are great for quick games that don't have instants/interrupts. Defender's block tend to be better in other scenarios.

In MtG, stalemates like the one you experienced are rare, because you can play instants during the battle phase. You attack, even if you would end up with unfavourable trades, your opponent blocks, and then boom! You either buff your creatures, bounce back his blockers, or play some other dirty tricks. In fact, when you see your opponent attacking even in unfavourable scenarios, you know he's got some tricks under his sleeves, and you have to be careful, and sometimes the best trade is not the best way to block. You can even bluff, and attack with unfavourable trades just to let your opponent think you have some instants in hand, and thus making him do unfavourable trades instead. This works well especially when you're playing very well known decks and your opponent expects you to have certain cards in hand, even if you don't.

I didn't like Eternal just because they used the same battle system but without instants. And yeah, it can really become quite stale.

Eternal does have instants though. o: long as you have the pp equivalent left over. 

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Just now, Othello said:

Eternal does have instants though. o: long as you have the pp equivalent left over. 

They are not true instants. Not the way I intend them, at least. They are more similar to hidden trap cards, you're not free to play them whenever you want. Unless they introduced something new in the most recent expansion.

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@Kinxill its the first time i heard to someone hate Magic but its your first experience with the game was legacy i can understand that totally XDD

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28 minutes ago, midgardsormr said:

They are not true instants. Not the way I intend them, at least. They are more similar to hidden trap cards, you're not free to play them whenever you want. Unless they introduced something new in the most recent expansion.

Well, that’s fair :) they are there in the game though, just still have the cost associated with it hehe. 

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11 hours ago, Weizi said:

Why does the defender get to choose the battle targets?

I've never heard of Eternal until now, but I am a long time MTG player, so I can only answer from a MTG point. The defender choosing what blocks is a big balancing factor because there's so much that can be done before, during, and after combat that can affect the outcome or result of combat, which includes spells that can kill the opponent's blockers, spells that can make your stuff bigger than the blockers, etc. There's also a lot of combat evasion in not just flying, but also various other abilities.

11 hours ago, Weizi said:

How is any aggro deck viable with a rule like this?

Generally aggro decks in MTG have more value to cost effects, coupled with removal and / or direct damage to close off the game. Some of the best aggro creatures all have a higher power than their cost to play.

 

Also, damage on creatures in MTG is only until the end of that turn, then they automatically "heal up" to full toughness. The permanent damage was a big adjustment for me when I started playing Shadowverse.

Edited by DedWards

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4 hours ago, HollowShadow said:

@Kinxill its the first time i heard to someone hate Magic but its your first experience with the game was legacy i can understand that totally XDD

Nah it was Standard, started at Timespiral and stopped at conflux. Got enough of 40+€ broken cards and legacy being so large 99% of freshly rotated out card being unplayable in that format.

The only moments i really enjoyed magic was doing drafts at a local shop.

Edited by Kinxil

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Eternal has 75 card decks.  With Lands.  Ew.

 

Magic the Gathering is only appealing to me because it's been out for so long that they are good at balancing standard.  Even then, you are expected to get mana screwed or flooded in 1/3 of your gamees, so the game has a major frustration factor that I don't like dealing with too much anymore.

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On 1/2/2018 at 10:49 PM, midgardsormr said:

@Weizi, it all comes to mechanics. Attacker's choice, like SV and HS, are great for quick games that don't have instants/interrupts. Defender's block tend to be better in other scenarios.

In MtG, stalemates like the one you experienced are rare, because you can play instants during the battle phase. You attack, even if you would end up with unfavourable trades, your opponent blocks, and then boom! You either buff your creatures, bounce back his blockers, or play some other dirty tricks. In fact, when you see your opponent attacking even in unfavourable scenarios, you know he's got some tricks under his sleeves, and you have to be careful, and sometimes the best trade is not the best way to block. You can even bluff, and attack with unfavourable trades just to let your opponent think you have some instants in hand, and thus making him do unfavourable trades instead. This works well especially when you're playing very well known decks and your opponent expects you to have certain cards in hand, even if you don't.

I didn't like Eternal just because they used the same battle system but without instants. And yeah, it can really become quite stale.

That actually sounds quite interesting, I was constantly looking for these mechanics in my cards to see if I could break the stalemate in Eternal, but no cards that can be casted in battle and I would have like 2 cards on hand that can directly affect creatures(BUT ONLY CASTABLE OUTSIDE OF BATTLE) against a board of 10+ creatures vs 10+ creatures....I could bounce/remove 2 out of their 10+ creatures but if I attack, my board gets slaughtered, and if my opponent attack, same fate. If this was just the "story mode" and untrue to the game, instead the game has ton of castable counters in battle....why not give players some of each of those mechanics in story so new people can experience all types of cards?

 

Anyway, enough of my ranting, the mechanics you mentioned actually sounds kind of fun, I assume there's stuff like counter spell as well in those situations, which adds even more mind game... I suppose you guess what tricks they could possibly have by how much unused mana they still have.

 my favorite way to play card games is depleting opponent's resources such as discard hand, destroy mana...etc...I got the first taste of that from playing yugioh, unfortunately, it was none-existence in both hearthstone and shadowverse.

I think I should give a magic online game a try. Do you know by any chance of they are free to play?

Edited by Weizi

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6 minutes ago, Weizi said:

my favorite way to play card games is depleting opponent's resources such as discard hand, destroy mana...etc...

I actually have a tournament worthy MTG land destruction (mana destruction) deck that got me 3rd place (out of 77 people) in a world cup qualifier 2 years ago. Haven't had much time to compete recently, but I have been keeping up my knowledge on the top decks of the format (format called Modern) and the deck should still work. Best part is, most decks of the format cost around $900 - $1500+, while mine only costs about $300-$400. I know it sounds like a lot, but a lot of the cards, especially the special lands, are usable in multiple decks.

12 minutes ago, Weizi said:

I think I should give a magic online game a try. Do you know by any chance of they are free to play?

I strongly recommend getting a friend that already plays to tutor you on the ins and outs. As for free to play, that's largely a no. I say largely as I know of some ways that let you win enough tickets (the in game currency) to effectively play for free. Also, like I said, some cards are usable in multiple decks, so once you have them, you don't need to get them again.

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On 1/3/2018 at 11:40 PM, DedWards said:

I actually have a tournament worthy MTG land destruction (mana destruction) deck that got me 3rd place (out of 77 people) in a world cup qualifier 2 years ago. Haven't had much time to compete recently, but I have been keeping up my knowledge on the top decks of the format (format called Modern) and the deck should still work. Best part is, most decks of the format cost around $900 - $1500+, while mine only costs about $300-$400. I know it sounds like a lot, but a lot of the cards, especially the special lands, are usable in multiple decks.

I strongly recommend getting a friend that already plays to tutor you on the ins and outs. As for free to play, that's largely a no. I say largely as I know of some ways that let you win enough tickets (the in game currency) to effectively play for free. Also, like I said, some cards are usable in multiple decks, so once you have them, you don't need to get them again.

I'm very sorry for the late reply, I was very busy last week. Not just magic, but I barely played shadowverse either. Thanks for giving me an overview on where I stand. I am quite surprised a deck like that would be pretty decent. I'm going to give Magic a try when I'm less busy, but I'm not sure I would like to invest my time into a tutor on a game that I know very little and don't know if I'm going to invest that much into yet. However, I do thank you a lot for letting me know what it would take in order for me to be efficient. I'll let you know what I think about the game as soon as I play it.

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