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Melancthon

A Fun Forest Deck

14 posts in this topic

Howdy!  I wanted to share a deck that I've been playing in A1 ranked that I've been quite enjoying, and ask for a bit of feedback.  I haven't been keeping strict track of my wins and losses, but according to my replays I'm 7-3 with it in my last ten matches, and that sounds about right generally speaking.  It's a control/midrange deck that looks to do some chip damage over the course of the game and then win on turn ten with Jungle Warden.  As well as it seems to be doing, I know there is room for improvement, so I figured I would post it here and see what you guys had to say about it.  With two legendaries and 12 gold cards it's not the cheapest deck in the world, but it's far from the most expensive :P

https://shadowverse-portal.com/deck/1.1.6KUzo.6KUzo.6KUzo.61jJY.61jJY.61jJY.61k32.61k32.fsMZQ.fsMZQ.fsMZQ.69O26.69O26.5zvvQ.5zvvQ.5zvvQ.61k2a.61k2a.6H0p2.6H0p2.6H0p2.61qeS.61qeS.6KsvC.6KsvC.6KsvC.6H0Jy.6H0Jy.6H0Jy.659nE.659nE.659nE.6DEdM.6DEdM.6DEdM.6Ko0s.6Ko0s.6DEdC.6DEdC.6DEdC

 

The cards I'm most questioning:

Demon Child Zane has been performing decently, but I'm not positive I wouldn't be better off with Grimnir.  The Clash from Zane is rarely a factor, and I'm thinking the enhance on Grimnir might serve to clear a board in preparation for a Warden.

Snowfield Warrior is a recent addition.  He's only come out once, but he did clear an evolved Levi enabling me to win a game against D-Shift (she had one card left in her deck!).  I think he is useful but might be replaced with something better.

Pixie Mischief.  Put a Tyrant back in a Shadow player's hand, enabling me to survive long enough to win, and allows me to juggle May mid-game, but again, might be replaced by something better.

 

Any thoughts or feedback from Forest players would be most welcome.  Thanks in advance!

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I'm missing 1 Zain and 1 Ancient Elf, but I personally don't think Ancient Elf is actually much better than Grimnir in this deck. I'll probably try it later with either 2 Zain, 2 Grimnir, and 1 Ancient Elf since I actually have the rest of the deck.

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Interesting deck. I tried it subbing 1 Zain for 1 Grimnir, since I don't have 3 Zain. Only played 5 games (went 2-3, one of the losses due to an Albert topdeck, damn him ¬¬), but I think it's enough to understand how it works.

It's a true midrange deck, and thanks to the good early game and Aerin who heals you and wards you up, you eat aggro alive. Also, sometimes it can be fast enough to get a chance against DShift.

But it has problems.

First: no card draw outside Staircase. Forest has never had good card draw, but here the issue is that you need to generate value in order to keep up with other midrange decks, like Mid Shadow and PDK, or control decks. At the moment the only value generation comes from favourable trades against aggro. Unless you play Staircase on turn 1-3 at most, you usually don't stand a chance against other midrange decks and control.

Second: your finisher is sometimes way too slow and little effective. 8-10 damage face on turn 10 is usually not enough to close a game. It might be enough against aggressive decks that don't contest your board, but in all the other cases you'll be probably 3-5 damage short to deliver lethal. If you compare it with Shadow, which is usually able to strike for 13 damage on turn 8-9 thanks to Tyrant, you'll better get what I mean. Ipiria can help you on delivering the extra damage you need, but you can't count on it because you have little to no card draw, so you can't expect it to be in your hand every game.

In my opinion, you need an alternate or support wincon in the deck. At the moment, you have no use for all the fairies you generate other than bounce them with Ancient Elf. You could use this element to your advantage: replace some Zain, DoD or Snowfield Warrior for something like Fairy Driver, or Roach. Anything that could transform your fairies into damage (even Rose Queen could be an idea, but I think you'd need more fairy generation for her to be effective). If you also manage to include some extra fairy generation like Elf Song, you'll see that you'll be able to deliver lethal a bit more reliably.

This way the deck will become a bit more aggressive. If you prefer a more defensive path, I'd include Spring Green Protection, Roach and Nature's Guidance instead. You'll gain some good card draw and the support wincon you need.

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I gave this deck a shot by replacing 1 Ancient Elf and 1 Zain for 1 Grimnir, and the deck feels awful.

It doesn't have enough early game or a fast finisher for an aggro deck, it doesn't have enough card draw or anti-aggro tools for a control deck, and it doesn't have enough big tempo generators that define a midrange deck. In essence, it just doesn't work, and I'm also playing in A1.

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Thanks for the feedback! 

midgardsormr:  Your Forest knowledge is immeasurable as always.  With your advice in mind, I'm going to remove the Snowfields and Zains, as well as one of the DoDs in favor of three Spring Green Protection (boosting my fairies and giving me another early bounce target), two Fitas to go along with the Spring Greens (I don't expect to draw many cards from them, but I do expect them to act as a pseudo-ward), and two Grimnir to see how they compare to Zain.  I have three roaches but I have never been good with them, so I am hesitant to just throw them in there and hope for the best.  I will probably end up replacing Fita with them if she doesn't work out.  Thanks for the insights!

Aru're, I'm a bit surprised by your total lack of success with the deck.  Maybe I should pay more attention to HOW I'm playing it and give some tips, but I thought it would be a fairly straightforward.  I mostly just use fairies and Brambles to trade until a ward comes down, then use them to soften up my opponent.  The density of wards and removal have been quite successful for me against aggro decks.  Can you tell me a bit more precisely which cards weren't working for you?  Like something you drew and wished it were just about anything else?  Though if you didn't enjoy the deck you certainly have no obligation to keep playing it.  Thanks for giving it a shot in the first place!

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10 hours ago, Melancthon said:

Thanks for the feedback! 

midgardsormr:  Your Forest knowledge is immeasurable as always.  With your advice in mind, I'm going to remove the Snowfields and Zains, as well as one of the DoDs in favor of three Spring Green Protection (boosting my fairies and giving me another early bounce target), two Fitas to go along with the Spring Greens (I don't expect to draw many cards from them, but I do expect them to act as a pseudo-ward), and two Grimnir to see how they compare to Zain.  I have three roaches but I have never been good with them, so I am hesitant to just throw them in there and hope for the best.  I will probably end up replacing Fita with them if she doesn't work out.  Thanks for the insights!

Aru're, I'm a bit surprised by your total lack of success with the deck.  Maybe I should pay more attention to HOW I'm playing it and give some tips, but I thought it would be a fairly straightforward.  I mostly just use fairies and Brambles to trade until a ward comes down, then use them to soften up my opponent.  The density of wards and removal have been quite successful for me against aggro decks.  Can you tell me a bit more precisely which cards weren't working for you?  Like something you drew and wished it were just about anything else?  Though if you didn't enjoy the deck you certainly have no obligation to keep playing it.  Thanks for giving it a shot in the first place!

Iperia particularly was complete trash because there are no buffs or anything like it to play around with it, and it often times sat around doing nothing in my hand because I could never play it against more aggressive decks. Venus or Pegasus Elf would be way better in that slot, the former of which could help solve the problem of not having enough card draw and the latter of which could be substituted for any matter of card draw that you put into your deck.

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I have to agree with Aru're about Ipiria somehow.

While I see why you included it (=extra damage push), you can only play it when you're ahead on the board. But with this deck you're only ahead against control, which shouldn't have issues dealing with a 5/4 on turn 5, even in Ambush. Against aggro it's a dead card most of the times.

Ipiria could be useful only if you plan to go a bit more on the aggressive side. In that case you'll be probably ahead on the board enough times for it to be actually threatening.

Venus could be a good idea, as it transforms your fairies into something useful (=card draw). I am not a fan of Pegasus Elf, but it makes sense in this deck.

Edited by midgardsormr

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11 minutes ago, Aru're said:

Iperia particularly was complete trash because there are no buffs or anything like it to play around with it, and it often times sat around doing nothing in my hand because I could never play it against more aggressive decks. Venus or Pegasus Elf would be way better in that slot, the former of which could help solve the problem of not having enough card draw and the latter of which could be substituted for any matter of card draw that you put into your deck.

Ipiria is a terrible card to play unless you have the advantage.  Its 5 cost is also tricky because that's usually when people start throwing evolves like crazy. If it was a 4 cost with a big less stats the card would be a lot better in the scenario that you're going first.  If still has a place in aggro forest decks but I don't know where else.

 

as for midrange forest, the problem has always been that most the cards forest has in this category require at least 2 cards to be played for a mediocre effect.  Craft to craft, no other craft has this kind of restriction.  There simply isn't enough ways to reduce the cost of cards to zero yet for forest.  

The evolve effect for Elvin princess that gives 2 0 cost fairies almost needs to be a fanfare and blah blah.  My point is the best Midranfe forest cards are the ones that completely abandon this such as Cassiopeia or elf queen. Card for card mid shadow destroys mid forest.  

I really hope in future expansions they try to push better midrange cards for forest

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I... sort of forgot Pegasus Elf was a thing.  Going to swap her out for Iperia and see how that goes.  This deck isn't particularly evo-hungry (I frequently find myself evolving a Fairy just to push some extra damage through), so it shouldn't be too hard to get a 2- or 3-1 out of her  Only played three games since I made the changes I talked about in my last post, but I won all three (Aggro Sword, Ambush Sword, and Candelabra Haven), so I still have some hope for the deck :P

Current incarnation: https://shadowverse-portal.com/deck/1.1.6KUzo.6KUzo.6KUzo.61jJY.61jJY.61jJY.61k32.61k32.fsMZQ.fsMZQ.fsMZQ.6KtOI.6KtOI.6KtOI.69O26.69O26.6Ko0Y.6Ko0Y.5zvvQ.5zvvQ.5zvvQ.61k2a.61k2a.6H0p2.6H0p2.6H0p2.6CsCi.6CsCi.61qeS.61qeS.659nE.659nE.69O1y.69O1y.6DEdM.6DEdM.6DEdM.6DEdC.6DEdC.6DEdC

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19 minutes ago, Melancthon said:

I... sort of forgot Pegasus Elf was a thing.  Going to swap her out for Iperia and see how that goes.  This deck isn't particularly evo-hungry (I frequently find myself evolving a Fairy just to push some extra damage through), so it shouldn't be too hard to get a 2- or 3-1 out of her  Only played three games since I made the changes I talked about in my last post, but I won all three (Aggro Sword, Ambush Sword, and Candelabra Haven), so I still have some hope for the deck :P

Current incarnation: https://shadowverse-portal.com/deck/1.1.6KUzo.6KUzo.6KUzo.61jJY.61jJY.61jJY.61k32.61k32.fsMZQ.fsMZQ.fsMZQ.6KtOI.6KtOI.6KtOI.69O26.69O26.6Ko0Y.6Ko0Y.5zvvQ.5zvvQ.5zvvQ.61k2a.61k2a.6H0p2.6H0p2.6H0p2.6CsCi.6CsCi.61qeS.61qeS.659nE.659nE.69O1y.69O1y.6DEdM.6DEdM.6DEdM.6DEdC.6DEdC.6DEdC

Uhm. It feels weird. I haven't tried this iteration yet, but it strikes me as a bit odd.

You're really heavy on the early curve, and have almost nothing to fill the midgame: 7 5pp cards (3 of which are your actual wincon, so you usually don't want to play them on turn 5), and 3 6pp cards. Lily might count as a 6pp play, but this makes only 9 midgame and 3 lategame cards anyway (5 with Grimnir). A bit too little for a deck that aims to win around turn 10-11. Fairies can only do so much, and I don't see ways for you to contest a board that goes really wide (Death's Breath, Mars + White Paladin, Council, Daria, Airjammer, etc).

I'm not surprised that you won against aggro and ambush Sword, because they're the decks you are preying on thanks to Brambles, May and all your wards. Candelabra Haven is not exactly a surprise either, since it just removes your board without contesting it. You just need some chip damage and a couple of Wardens to win the game.

To really test your deck, you should play against other midrange decks and see how it fares: mid Shadow, Dirt Rune (both the Burn and Mid variants), Storm Haven, Neutral Forest, mid Sword and Vengeance Blood. I'm pretty sure you should be favoured against Neutral Forest, thanks to your bulky followers, and maybe slightly also against Burn Rune. But I'm not that confident against the others. These are the natural competitors of your deck, so you should focus on being able to beat them consistently.

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It is very much odd!  You are totally correct about the deck being light in the mid-game.  The more I play it, the more it is starting to feel like a control deck than a true midrange.  My mid-game play seems to consist of controlling the board with favorable fairy trades (assisted by Brambles and Sylvan Justice) and bounce shenanigans, while hitting face for whatever pings I can get in.  Games are frequently going longer than ten turns.  Evolved Fairies seem like they might be wasteful, but with three Aerin in the deck it really can be a good idea.  I've also cast Stairway for it's enhance a couple of times and not regretted it!  :P

Took the two Fita and added one more Grimnir (I really think he is a strict upgrade over Zain.  Zain's ability hardly ever came up, while Grimnir's can have a huge impact) and one more Pegasus Elf and played four more games.  Won one and lost one against Storm Haven (the win was clean, the loss was a pretty hard brick against a good hand) and won one and lost one against Ramp Dragon.  Held on for a looooong time in the game I lost, but the game I won makes playing this deck worth it no matter how it turns out in the end.  Have you ever killed a Bahamut with Pegasus Elf and May?  Best feeling EVER!  Took down two Bahamut, two Forte, and a Genesis Dragon that game with cheap followers, it was great!

As for testing against midrange, I am sure you are right, but the matches have hardly come up.  I usually only play a handful of matches on a given day, and of the decks you listed only Storm Haven has come up.  Don't know if it's luck of the draw or that people just aren't playing much midrange at my level.

6 hours ago, codymc10 said:

...as for midrange forest, the problem has always been that most the cards forest has in this category require at least 2 cards to be played for a mediocre effect.  Craft to craft, no other craft has this kind of restriction.  There simply isn't enough ways to reduce the cost of cards to zero yet for forest.  

codymc10, yeah, I couldn't agree more.  Forest was one of the last crafts I picked up (been playing since just after the release of RoB), but I saw the deficit as soon as I tried making a serious Forest deck.  Why does Glimmering Wings suck SO much?

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53 minutes ago, Melancthon said:

It is very much odd!  You are totally correct about the deck being light in the mid-game.  The more I play it, the more it is starting to feel like a control deck than a true midrange.  My mid-game play seems to consist of controlling the board with favorable fairy trades (assisted by Brambles and Sylvan Justice) and bounce shenanigans, while hitting face for whatever pings I can get in.  Games are frequently going longer than ten turns.  Evolved Fairies seem like they might be wasteful, but with three Aerin in the deck it really can be a good idea.  I've also cast Stairway for it's enhance a couple of times and not regretted it!  :P

Took the two Fita and added one more Grimnir (I really think he is a strict upgrade over Zain.  Zain's ability hardly ever came up, while Grimnir's can have a huge impact) and one more Pegasus Elf and played four more games.  Won one and lost one against Storm Haven (the win was clean, the loss was a pretty hard brick against a good hand) and won one and lost one against Ramp Dragon.  Held on for a looooong time in the game I lost, but the game I won makes playing this deck worth it no matter how it turns out in the end.  Have you ever killed a Bahamut with Pegasus Elf and May?  Best feeling EVER!  Took down two Bahamut, two Forte, and a Genesis Dragon that game with cheap followers, it was great!

As for testing against midrange, I am sure you are right, but the matches have hardly come up.  I usually only play a handful of matches on a given day, and of the decks you listed only Storm Haven has come up.  Don't know if it's luck of the draw or that people just aren't playing much midrange at my level.

codymc10, yeah, I couldn't agree more.  Forest was one of the last crafts I picked up (been playing since just after the release of RoB), but I saw the deficit as soon as I tried making a serious Forest deck.  Why does Glimmering Wings suck SO much?

 

idk probably change in design goals.  I think maybe when they started making the game, they thought games should last longer than they do now and maybe forests strengths could be seen.  If you played the forest story mode, games went on long enough that you were able to utilize these cards.  Somewhere between then and now, they have completely dumped that and have moved more towards bouncing and hand size

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Just a quick update.  The deck is currently 14-12 since I posted the last changes.  Gives aggro fits, is capable of beating D-shift (though not consistently by any means), does decently against midrange and pretty much folds to a good control deck.

As a free-to-player who eschews net-decking, I'm pretty happy with it.  It's a ton of fun (best things ever are turn three May/Barrage/May against aggro or blanking the opponent's Bahamut for six pp) and has a slightly better than 50% win rate, so good enough!  :P

If I'm changing anything, it would be to take out the two Mischief and one Pegasus Elf to shore up the mid-game.  Any suggestions?

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20 hours ago, Melancthon said:

Just a quick update.  The deck is currently 14-12 since I posted the last changes.  Gives aggro fits, is capable of beating D-shift (though not consistently by any means), does decently against midrange and pretty much folds to a good control deck.

As a free-to-player who eschews net-decking, I'm pretty happy with it.  It's a ton of fun (best things ever are turn three May/Barrage/May against aggro or blanking the opponent's Bahamut for six pp) and has a slightly better than 50% win rate, so good enough!  :P

If I'm changing anything, it would be to take out the two Mischief and one Pegasus Elf to shore up the mid-game.  Any suggestions?

Cassiopeia and 1x Elf Queen could help you, but they're expensive. If you want to craft them, Cassy is top priority. But it also depends on how many cards you usually have in hand around turn 6-8. If they're few, it's probably not worth it.

Lilac is extremely good usually, because people don't want to trade into her and she ends up surviving even 3-4 turns dealing a lot of cheap damage. And she also works as emergency removal for big dudes during the midgame, leaving a decent 3/6 body.

Vist could be useful as 4pp drop if you add some 6pp+ followers.

Starry Elf could help you getting Brambles or Staircase.

But I'd personally suggest you to try Feena here. You would not use her to get a 0pp combo piece, but as a midgame option to build your board and draw. She could provide you Lily exactly when you might need her the most.

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