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Xulin

Which class would be the best candidate for Hand Destruction?

80 posts in this topic

Since card draw seems to be freely being made available to everyone, it makes sense then that there should be some form of enemy discard mechanic in the game; it would be a form of control not yet seen in shadowverse.

So I got to thinking who would be the best candidtate? I think it would be between 2 choices: Sword or Shadowcraft

Control Sword is severely lacking in actual control options - most of their removal comes in the form of ward rush and bane minions (so generic keywords), which is pretty limited compared to options available to other control classes. I believe the designer intent, is for them to "affect the board through minions" which is why they have cards like quickdraw and spinny sword. Discard could be a unique control niche for them that doesn't technically break their rules, since you're interacting with your opponents hand, rather than the board.

Control Shadow on the other hand is pretty specialized at Creature Removal through Destruction effects with some damage effects as well. Compared to other control classes (Forest, Rune, Haven), they don't really have much in the way of alternate removal mechanics - if they were to gain access to discard, then they could be the best true control deck in the game... killing all mans and removing all spells from hand. You could actually have a control deck that functions not with just some hard win con card, but by fatiguing the opponent. Their inability to banish or shapechange or whatever would still be a weakness preserved for the class.

Do you guys think another class would be a better fit? Or that there should NEVER be any discard in the game?

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19 minutes ago, Xulin said:

Since card draw seems to be freely being made available to everyone, it makes sense then that there should be some form of enemy discard mechanic in the game; it would be a form of control not yet seen in shadowverse.

**** that.  No.  No discard in game.  EVER.

Edited by Jack42

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3 minutes ago, Alexx55 said:

You mean the yugioh hand destruction? Dragon to push discard even further.

By hand destruction, I mean enemy targeted forced discard effects.

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5 minutes ago, Jack42 said:

**** that.  No.  No discard in game.  EVER.

It's the only way to beat combo and hard win cards, since there are no instants.

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Just now, Xulin said:

It's the only way to beat combo and hard win cards, since there are no instants.

Yes.  By ****ing over all combo and control decks to the point where all combo decks are unplayable and all control decks will be hurt really bad.

Learn to play aggro.

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2 minutes ago, Xulin said:

It's the only way to beat combo and hard win cards, since there are no instants.

Hand destruction should be introduced only if interrupts are introduced. Being able to discard cards and destroy your opponent's gameplan without your opponent being able to do anything about it it's just... dumb.

Aegis? Destroyed. All combo decks? Gone. Nep? Nevermind.

No thanks.

I don't understand why people think that control should be able to beat everything...

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5 minutes ago, midgardsormr said:

Hand destruction should be introduced only if interrupts are introduced. Being able to discard cards and destroy your opponent's gameplan without your opponent being able to do anything about it it's just... dumb.

People can already do things to ruin your day regardless of your own game plan.

How do you prevent someone from Themis-ing your board? Or King Elephanting you? Or Evolve Vikinging you in the face for 6 damage? You don't.

Quote

Aegis? Destroyed. All combo decks? Gone. Nep? Nevermind.

That depends the form that discard takes. An effect like "Your opponent discards his 2 lowest PP cost cards from hand" or "Discard one spell from your opponents hand" would not kill every combo deck in existance.

Quote

I don't understand why people think that control should be able to beat everything...

I think everything should be able to beat everything.

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I think if they remove ramp from Dragok, a mechanic like this could be interesting instead 

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24 minutes ago, Xulin said:

People can already do things to ruin your day regardless of your own game plan.

How do you prevent someone from Themis-ing your board? Or King Elephanting you? Or Evolve Vikinging you in the face for 6 damage? You don't.

That depends the form that discard takes. An effect like "Your opponent discards his 2 lowest PP cost cards from hand" or "Discard one spell from your opponents hand" would not kill every combo deck in existance.

I think everything should be able to beat everything.

You can play around stuff (i.e. Themis? Don't overcommit).

Effects like the ones you say would still destroy a lot of combo decks (e.g. Roach, DShift, PtP, OTK Dragon, etc).

We already have the chance to beat everything. Combo, like DShift, can win against aggro (it has winrate greater than 0%), control can win against combo (ditto), and aggro can win against control. So I don't see the need of introducing discard effects.

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37 minutes ago, midgardsormr said:

You can play around stuff (i.e. Themis? Don't overcommit).

Effects like the ones you say would still destroy a lot of combo decks (e.g. Roach, DShift, PtP, OTK Dragon, etc).

We already have the chance to beat everything. Combo, like DShift, can win against aggro (it has winrate greater than 0%), control can win against combo (ditto), and aggro can win against control. So I don't see the need of introducing discard effects.

You can't play around everything.

You can't play around Wolf Bolt, or Dimension Shift. It's either "kill them before turn _______" or "they don't have the card"; there are no answers to instant effects like these.

They would not be so oppressive, but there is a disproportionate level of card draw in the game right now; it stands to reason that if everyone can flood themselves with cards, then the opposite should be possible as well.

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3 minutes ago, Xulin said:

it stands to reason that if everyone can flood themselves with cards, then the opposite should be possible as well.

No it doesn't.  You are talking about introducing cards to the game that could go in any deck and would single handedly force other things out of the meta completely because you can't be arsed to deal with anything other than midrangey creature combat.

Git gud.

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10 minutes ago, Jack42 said:

No it doesn't.  You are talking about introducing cards to the game that could go in any deck and would single handedly force other things out of the meta completely because you can't be arsed to deal with anything other than midrangey creature combat.

Git gud.

Discard cards can take any number of different forms and can be made in such a way as to not be ubiquitous, like Dirty Rat.

Your emotional response leads me to conclude that you're reliant on certain cards as a crutch: if you are skilled player, you will adapt.

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5 minutes ago, Xulin said:

Discard cards can take any number of different forms and can be made in such a way as to not be ubiquitous, like Dirty Rat.

Your emotional response leads me to conclude that you're reliant on certain cards as a crutch: if you are skilled player, you will adapt.

 

As is any Dshift player lol.  

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2 hours ago, midgardsormr said:

Hand destruction should be introduced only if interrupts are introduced. Being able to discard cards and destroy your opponent's gameplan without your opponent being able to do anything about it it's just... dumb.

Aegis? Destroyed. All combo decks? Gone. Nep? Nevermind.

No thanks.

I don't understand why people think that control should be able to beat everything...

Pretty much this.  Unless they add instants so we can screw over braindead storm and other follower based decks.  

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1 minute ago, fangore said:

Pretty much this.  Unless they add instants so we can screw over braindead storm and other follower based decks.  

I would be okay with instants being added to the game.

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Just now, Xulin said:

I would be okay with instants being added to the game.

I don't think they would ever do it though, just it makes things much more complex.  Would add a lot more programming work to be done.  I could see something like hearthstone secrets being introduced, like some simple way to interact with the opponent's turn though.

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42 minutes ago, Jack42 said:

No it doesn't.  You are talking about introducing cards to the game that could go in any deck and would single handedly force other things out of the meta completely because you can't be arsed to deal with anything other than midrangey creature combat.

Git gud.

The op asks which class should get an enemy discard mechanic. The implication being that such effects would not be neutral, therefore not any deck could have them. Combo would survive.

As for who would get such effects? My vote would ho to dragon. Mostly because it already has a discard sub-archetype.

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20 minutes ago, Child of LocLac said:

Combo would survive.

It would be as completely oppressive a matchup as D-Shift vs Control, which everyone ****es about all the ****ing time.

 

RANDOM discard could not exist in a healthy state in this game.  The op is suggesting ****ing TARGETED discard so that combo decks outright lose the game on the spot.  That is downright unacceptable and 

51 minutes ago, Xulin said:

Discard cards can take any number of different forms and can be made in such a way as to not be ubiquitous, like Dirty Rat.

Your emotional response leads me to conclude that you're reliant on certain cards as a crutch: if you are skilled player, you will adapt.

you need to git gud.  This has been one of the worst "legitimate" ideas anyone comes up with every time someone else mentions it, and the response is the exact same every time.  This would be the new D-Shift, except you wouldn't have to build a deck around it and it would utterly destroy combo decks.  There is no way that targeted discard would be healthy for the game, and you only want it because you can't deal with D-Shift in your special snowflake deck and don't want to ever have to git gud and adjust to the meta.

Edited by Jack42

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24 minutes ago, fangore said:

Unless they add instants

It is far more likely they would add discard than instants.  Instants aren't phone friendly.

Edited by Jack42

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28 minutes ago, Xulin said:

I would be okay with instants being added to the game.

I would be OK too, that's much better than discard and a lot less disruptive.

But as fangore said, it's quite difficult to implement (and balance) in SV.

26 minutes ago, Child of LocLac said:

The op asks which class should get an enemy discard mechanic. The implication being that such effects would not be neutral, therefore not any deck could have them. Combo would survive.

As for who would get such effects? My vote would ho to dragon. Mostly because it already has a discard sub-archetype.

The problem is that discard without interrupts doesn't only destroy combo, it destroys every deck relying on a wincon.

When I used to play MtG, discard was a cool mechanic to contest control's value game. But of course in MtG you have instants, so my opponent could counter my discard cards. That was OK for me anyway, because this way he wasted counters on my discard spells instead of my wincons.

In SV, you can't. Discard Aegis from Aegis decks, and it can't win. Discard Nep or Morde, no more ways to push damage and swing board. Discard Eachtar, and Mid Shadow is just a bunch of crappy 2/2s and 1/1s. Same for Neutral Forest with BnB. Discard Atomy, no more memes for you.

SV has simply not enough cards to build functioning hybrid decks so that you always have alternate wincons when your primary one gets discarded... not to mention that you can get discarded all of them anyway.

And if ever instants/interrupts or even discard get implemented, they need to be distributed to at least 2-3 classes and neutrals, like banish or transformation effects. They are disruptive mechanics like removals, not constructive ones like overflow and spellboost, and unlike MtG you can't splash colors to access them. Giving them to a single craft would make it so broken.

Edited by midgardsormr

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12 minutes ago, midgardsormr said:

IThe problem is that discard without interrupts doesn't only destroy combo, it destroys every deck relying on a wincon.

When I used to play MtG, discard was a cool mechanic to contest control's value game. But of course in MtG you have instants, so my opponent could counter my discard cards. That was OK for me anyway, because this way he wasted counters on my discard spells instead of my wincons.

In SV, you can't. Discard Aegis from Aegis decks, and it can't win. Discard Nep or Morde, no more ways to push damage and swing board. Discard Eachtar, and Mid Shadow is just a bunch of crappy 2/2s and 1/1s. Same for Neutral Forest with BnB. Discard Atomy, no more memes for you.

SV has simply not enough cards to build functioning hybrid decks so that you always have alternate wincons when your primary one gets discarded... not to mention that you can get discarded all of them anyway.

And if ever instants/interrupts or even discard get implemented, they need to be distributed to at least 2-3 classes and neutrals, like banish or transformation effects. They are disruptive mechanics like removals, not constructive ones like overflow and spellboost, and unlike MtG you can't splash colors to access them. Giving them to a single craft would make it so broken.

While that's true, win condition cards are not 1 of cards in shadowverse: you can have up to 3 copies of every card. You discard their Aegis, and they play Aether and just pull another one from their deck. Redundancy already exists simply by the base mechanics of the game.

Discard Any Card Whatsoever would basically be deck killing unless it was very expensive, but there is enough room for conditional discards to not simply be deck destroying... imagine if someone played a Dirty Rat equivalent and pulled an Aegis down turn 4 - gg discard guy.

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1 minute ago, Xulin said:

While that's true, win condition cards are not 1 of cards in shadowverse: you can have up to 3 copies of every card. You discard their Aegis, and they play Aether and just pull another one from their deck.

You cannot just draw and play another copy of:

Daria, Dimensional Witch

D-Shift

Giant Chimera

Lion of the Golden City

Any Card Fetched By The Effect Of "White Wolf of Eldwood"

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1 minute ago, Xulin said:

While that's true, win condition cards are not 1 of cards in shadowverse: you can have up to 3 copies of every card. You discard their Aegis, and they play Aether and just pull another one from their deck. Redundancy already exists simply by the base mechanics of the game.

Discard Any Card Whatsoever would basically be deck killing unless it was very expensive, but there is enough room for conditional discards to not simply be deck destroying... imagine if someone played a Dirty Rat equivalent and pulled an Aegis down turn 4 - gg discard guy.

Aether doesn't replace Aegis. If you discard the "true" wincons, tutors become useless.

If you had to introduce some conditional discard mechanic, how "conditional" should it be? Because the examples you provided before would have had a devastating effect on a couple of decks like OTK Roach and DShift. And while I could agree that every card/archetype should have some tools available to counter it, this needs to be done in a broader way: OK giving tools to control to win against combo, but then let's give tools to combo to win against aggro (e.g. a a 3pp 2/3 Ward with spellboost for DShift, a 2pp 1/3 ward for Roach that gives you a 0pp Fairy, etc).

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