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Morrigan

New Concept? Tribes

18 posts in this topic

So I was just perusing an article posted on WotC's blog about the author playing with a friend in a classic MtG matchup of Goblins vs. Merfolk. For those unfamiliar with these two beasties, while most are generally not a big threat individually, they synergize very well with each other, in terms of buffing or giving each other abilities (think along the lines of Swordcrafts Officer/Commander, but not exactly)

So I started thinking, what if in the future, Cygames introduced "tribal" creatures/spells to future expansions. In effect making certain followers tagged as "goblin" and thus allowing players to use a theme of goblins to build into decks. @SNOWMEXICAN hit upon this idea way back in the Card Theory thread.

For example, sticking with Goblins as a tribe:

Goblin Hero - Swordcraft (officer/goblin)

3pp 2/2 Ward

Fanfare: Give all other allied Goblin Class followers in play +0/+1

 

Goblin Rabblerouser - Dragoncraft (goblin)

2pp 1/1

Put 2 Goblin Class followers from your deck into your hand and reduce their cost by 1

 

This would extend to each class with their own "class followers" as well as a new specification in future neutral cards as well. The best scenario would have this roll out through the course of several expansions in order to slowly build the thematic idea without creating some vacuum of meta destroying by having super strong cards to immediately take over.

 

Edited by Morrigan

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They already did this with Swordcraft, Bats, Serpents, and Neutrals.  So far players just ignore the tribe except for the most over-statted parts of it.  So Vania (back when bats were a real thing), Alice, Maid Leader -> Albert, etc.

Edit:

Side note - one of my favorite flavor parts of MTG was the thing about dragons eating lots of goblins to get better stats.

Edited by Jack42

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1 hour ago, Jack42 said:

One of my favorite flavor parts of MTG was the thing about dragons eating lots of goblins to get better stats.

Sound somewhat like a mix of Atomy and Crusher.

On a general manner I don't support tribes because they promote automated deck building. Neutral is somewhat a tribe and well, several players made virtually the same deck until Alice got nerfed and suddently, that tribe no longer exist.

Tribes from my experience has always been a Ultra played - Not played at all genre which only bow down to "Is it performing better than regular deck building ?" Best class case is likely Pirate tribe on HS. Nobody cared and suddently, Patches, and suddently everyone is seeking for the One piece.

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9 hours ago, Morrigan said:

Goblin Rabblerouser - Dragoncraft (goblin)

2pp 1/1

Put 2 Goblin Class followers from your deck into your hand and reduce their cost by 1

Aaagggrooo, AAAGGGroooo, AAAAAAGGGGGGRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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To be honest I would like to see some type classes for some of the other crafts, not unlike Sword's Officer/Commander traits.

For example, I would love to see for Haven -

God or Saint or Celestial

That way cards like Andromeda can be classified as a God, and can have text like "Give all other God cards in play and in your hand the effect: 'can't be destroyed or damaged by spells or effects'".

Cards like Incandescent Dragon could be modified to have Ward, the classic debuff effect, and "Every time a Celestial is played from your hand, reduce this card's cost by 1."

Synergies like that which would promote thematic deck builder options.

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7 hours ago, Jack42 said:

Side note - one of my favorite flavor parts of MTG was the thing about dragons eating lots of goblins to get better stats.

IMG_0502.JPG.2deca5e834356709cac3b3088c643c5d.JPG

IMG_0503.JPG.4665623c2ce34f3f2c8dee98b34b7470.JPG

Poor Goblins...no respect!

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Honestly sounds like a cool idea but given how poorly Cygames has supported Officer/Commander, I have zero faith in them to support a concept like this. Also I have to strongly object to the idea of doling out such followers in dribs and drabs. Just look at Snake Blood, it doesn't have the cards it needs to make a full deck, it's stupid. Presumably more Snake support will be coming in the next expansion but it's just a dumb way of going about things. For that matter, why on Earth is Cygames introducing Snakes to Blood when they already have Forest Bats? Why does Rune have Earth Rite and Spellboost? It just feels like they don't have a clear direction for this game at all. Sword starts with Officer/Commander being it's thing. That's been largely abandoned and now Sword is mainly big stat sticks with Rush, Storm, and more 5 PP plays than they know what to do with. It feels like the game needs an overhaul. I've brought up the comparison to Paragon before in regards to dailies, even though I know it's a complete different genre, but Paragon has undergone more than one significant overhaul and the game is the better for it. 

Well, it remains a cool idea that I think would be a lot of fun. Just not sure Cygames would know what to do with it given their track record. Which is actually kind of ironic as I recall reading on IGN that they had some old MTG hands working for them. 

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2 hours ago, cypherhalo said:

Honestly sounds like a cool idea but given how poorly Cygames has supported Officer/Commander, I have zero faith in them to support a concept like this. Also I have to strongly object to the idea of doling out such followers in dribs and drabs. Just look at Snake Blood, it doesn't have the cards it needs to make a full deck, it's stupid. Presumably more Snake support will be coming in the next expansion but it's just a dumb way of going about things. For that matter, why on Earth is Cygames introducing Snakes to Blood when they already have Forest Bats? Why does Rune have Earth Rite and Spellboost? It just feels like they don't have a clear direction for this game at all. Sword starts with Officer/Commander being it's thing. That's been largely abandoned and now Sword is mainly big stat sticks with Rush, Storm, and more 5 PP plays than they know what to do with. It feels like the game needs an overhaul. I've brought up the comparison to Paragon before in regards to dailies, even though I know it's a complete different genre, but Paragon has undergone more than one significant overhaul and the game is the better for it. 

Well, it remains a cool idea that I think would be a lot of fun. Just not sure Cygames would know what to do with it given their track record. Which is actually kind of ironic as I recall reading on IGN that they had some old MTG hands working for them. 

I feel that the entire Snek synergy is actually a good thing. It does offer Future Design space, which Cygames seems to be keen on. 

Likewise for having a concept like this be a slow trickle over the course of several releases.

Firstly it prevents oversaturation (see WD and Neutral as an example) which is just warps a meta so quickly that it would be crushed by nerfs, because everyone would jump on the train if it was good enough.

Secondly, it could potentially extend the life of certain cards from previous expansions in and out of playtime, if they managed to design it correctly. Similar to how what happened with PDK. 

As an addendum to my original idea, Cygames could potential expand the viability and prevent the "abuse" of tribal cards by multi-crafting them. Have a follower that increases pp, that isn't a Neutral or Dragon, but a Forest and Sword follower, limiting it to only Forest or Sword decks.

Spitballing, yeah. It would certainly open up a lot of variance over time, or at least work towards harboring variance instead of the current New Meta New Decks So Long Thanks For All The Fish syndrome.

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15 minutes ago, Morrigan said:

I feel that the entire Snek synergy is actually a good thing. It does offer Future Design space, which Cygames seems to be keen on. 

Likewise for having a concept like this be a slow trickle over the course of several releases.

Firstly it prevents oversaturation (see WD and Neutral as an example) which is just warps a meta so quickly that it would be crushed by nerfs, because everyone would jump on the train if it was good enough.

Secondly, it could potentially extend the life of certain cards from previous expansions in and out of playtime, if they managed to design it correctly. Similar to how what happened with PDK. 

As an addendum to my original idea, Cygames could potential expand the viability and prevent the "abuse" of tribal cards by multi-crafting them. Have a follower that increases pp, that isn't a Neutral or Dragon, but a Forest and Sword follower, limiting it to only Forest or Sword decks.

Spitballing, yeah. It would certainly open up a lot of variance over time, or at least work towards harboring variance instead of the current New Meta New Decks So Long Thanks For All The Fish syndrome.

Good points about releasing it over time. I won't say you've sold me on the idea but I'm more open to considering it. 

Well, here's hoping they do something a bit more interesting with the next expansion, even if it's just a new keyword. 

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Talking bout tribes ? Meanwhile , i still waiting like forever for orca supports . I mean only neptune and "cute little orca ( im not gonna count that 5pp 4/4  serpent as support cause its sucks) " ? I dont think cygames gonna support tribe anymore . See bats like example, they just give bats generator just in DE and ROB (only veight in ROB thought) , dont think they gonna support it  . They just gonna print half cooked deck and leave it like to be 

Edited by Void

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3 hours ago, Void said:

Talking bout tribes ? Meanwhile , i still waiting like forever for orca supports . I mean only neptune and "cute little orca ( im not gonna count that 5pp 4/4  serpent as support cause its sucks) " ? I dont think cygames gonna support tribe anymore . See bats like example, they just give bats generator just in DE and ROB (only veight in ROB thought) , dont think they gonna support it  . They just gonna print half cooked deck and leave it like to be 

Yes, yes, yes so much this!  I love orcas, and have been trying to make sea dragon forever.  First regular sea dragon, sea dragon ramp, sea dragon aggro, finally sea dragon jabberwock.  There just are too few orca cards and yeah Queen serpent is god awful so really you have aqua nereid and Neptune.  They have other sea dwelling dragon followers that could maybe get orca tag?  Or maybe create a new tag like water serpent or something?  We have hippogryph, island whale, seabrand dragon, and others.  Yet no synergy to bind them and most are very underwhelming cards so that tribal tag plus tribal buffs and abilities could really make it a thing.  

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51 minutes ago, fangore said:

Yes, yes, yes so much this!  I love orcas, and have been trying to make sea dragon forever.  First regular sea dragon, sea dragon ramp, sea dragon aggro, finally sea dragon jabberwock.  There just are too few orca cards and yeah Queen serpent is god awful so really you have aqua nereid and Neptune.  They have other sea dwelling dragon followers that could maybe get orca tag?  Or maybe create a new tag like water serpent or something?  We have hippogryph, island whale, seabrand dragon, and others.  Yet no synergy to bind them and most are very underwhelming cards so that tribal tag plus tribal buffs and abilities could really make it a thing.  

:D We could tag them Aquatic

And make fancy cards like:

Siren Queen

8pp Legendary 5/5 7/7

Fanfare: Summon an enemy Tidal Siren

---

Tidal Siren

4pp Legendary 4/4 4/4

Ambush

Fanfare: As long as Tidal Siren has Ambush, all Aquatic followers are unblockable.

 

 

Edited by Morrigan

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I must say I don't like tribes. I mean, it's not bad to have them, but I'd prefer new keywords and synergies.

Tribes get pretty stale pretty fast. And if they have synergies between them they tend to be anti-synergy with everything else. There's little space for deckbuilding.

In MtG they might make sense, because there you have lot of cards in each expansion, and you can mix colors. In SV, much less: if you print support for a tribe, you're giving away at least half of the cards of a single craft in an expansion.

Look at Blood: you might be able to play with Snakes now, but are those decks really viable? Are those cards really useful in other archetypes? Unfortunately, no. And that's why it feels almost like Blood got no support at all this expansion.

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@Morrigan That sounds like a lot of fun.  Yeah and putting them all under one tag "aquatic" would be sweet...oh imagine if Neptune was changed to evolve all aquatics!  Now that would be a legendary.  

@midgardsormr Blood would have been fine if they didn't nerf every card they got last expansion.  I think they assumed those cards would still be there when designing this expansion which was mostly for fun.  Medusiana memes, and Jormungand is oodles of fun but not really competitive.  

Though speaking of blood the bat synergies with  Vania, vampiric fortress and all was a nice way to do synergy without actually using a tribal tag.  Of course there are many synergies with fairies also, no tribal tag.  

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5 hours ago, Morrigan said:

:D We could tag them Aquatic

And make fancy cards like:

Siren Queen

8pp Legendary 5/5 7/7

Fanfare: Summon an enemy Tidal Siren

---

Tidal Siren

4pp Legendary 4/4 4/4

Ambush

Fanfare: As long as Tidal Siren has Ambush, all Aquatic followers are unblockable.

 

 

lol "unblockable"

too much eternal?

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6 hours ago, didyoulikeit said:

lol "unblockable"

too much eternal?

xD Actually it came about because I was thinking about all the landwalk abilities from Magic.

Unblockable = Ignore Wards xD:P

 

I got some unblockables right here.

IMG_0507.thumb.PNG.8b48aac18d74ed33f5926b56210c2bfb.PNG

Edited by Morrigan

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Well tribes offer a lot of unique possibilities to the game, you could make an Angel Tribe, Zombie Tribe or Goblin Tribe.

 

The trickier bit is that technically Swordcraft is sort of about Tribal Mechanics if you consider officer/commander but haven't been very good at supporting it so far as @cypherhalo has pointed out. I mean the only Officer that does something with commanders that sees any regular play at the moment is Centaur Vanguard, from Standard. and then you have a few buffs, from standard/basic as well.

 

And in theory we have the Neutrals, though so far that was handled a bit cackhandedly by Cygames. But it could offer up for some potentially interesting decks and allow people to do what they want. But it does require them to get better at supporting what is already there in terms of Swordcraft before i trust them to expand that into new tribes.

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On 26/10/2017 at 10:37 AM, Morrigan said:

xD Actually it came about because I was thinking about all the landwalk abilities from Magic.

Unblockable = Ignore Wards xD:P

 

I got some unblockables right here.

IMG_0507.thumb.PNG.8b48aac18d74ed33f5926b56210c2bfb.PNG

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6b0ftfKFEJg

Sums up the image... >.>

7 minutes ago, Imperial Dane said:

Well tribes offer a lot of unique possibilities to the game, you could make an Angel Tribe, Zombie Tribe or Goblin Tribe.

 

The trickier bit is that technically Swordcraft is sort of about Tribal Mechanics if you consider officer/commander but haven't been very good at supporting it so far as @cypherhalo has pointed out. I mean the only Officer that does something with commanders that sees any regular play at the moment is Centaur Vanguard, from Standard. and then you have a few buffs, from standard/basic as well.

 

And in theory we have the Neutrals, though so far that was handled a bit cackhandedly by Cygames. But it could offer up for some potentially interesting decks and allow people to do what they want. But it does require them to get better at supporting what is already there in terms of Swordcraft before i trust them to expand that into new tribes.

Maybe for swordcraft you end up with like yugioh has with warriors and beast-warriors? You do have Jeno and Centaur Vanguard after all, and... apparently reached a low point in conscripting capable officers somewhere in Swordcraft lore that forced some officer to put a hedgehog on the pay roll. 

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