Elliot Gale

Comprehensive Guide: All You Need to Know About Take Two (WIP)

28 posts in this topic

I started this little personal project earlier in the day and thought I'd share. It's not complete yet, and I have many plans for additions, but the general card rating section is finished (accounting for the changes featured in the end-of-August patch). I'm sure it'll be useful for those that are totally clueless about where to begin their drafts but have a generally good idea of how to play the game otherwise. Hopefully it'll be much more robust later on down the line. Will be making the effort to keep it current for the foreseeable future.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AajQZt26kDAJi1apltdxSBSP2M-whpGx8bEAjn7Za5w/edit?usp=sharing

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Well, I'm willing to take suggestions in regards to formatting. I don't use spreadsheets all that often, so I'm not familiar with every little function that I could potentially be using.

Just cut off all the excess rows/columns, centered some stuff (mostly card grades), and enabled text wrap for the relevant cells. It should be looking a lot better than it did last night.

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15 hours ago, Elliot Gale said:

Well, I'm willing to take suggestions in regards to formatting. I don't use spreadsheets all that often, so I'm not familiar with every little function that I could potentially be using.

Just cut off all the excess rows/columns, centered some stuff (mostly card grades), and enabled text wrap for the relevant cells. It should be looking a lot better than it did last night.

Very impressed to hear you're taking this on :) It's always great to see more Arena enthusiasts on the forums since I feel there are so few of us. I think if there was a way to format the spreadsheet so you could always see your letter grade definitions while scrolling through, that would make it much easier to use. I don't have much more advice in terms of formatting rather than that since I'm not too experienced in that area.

But, I'd be willing to give a helping hand for card grades if you're on the edge for any cards. I've been playing Arena since the game started and have around 350 to 400 Arena runs under my belt with an average winrate between 3.5 to 4 per run during each expansion so I feel like I have a pretty good understanding and grasp on the cards. Best of luck on the spreadsheet!

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I think I've got the vast majority of cards nailed down pretty well within my presented criteria. Obviously it should be prefaced that high ranking cards don't guarantee a victory and low ranking ones don't guarantee losses, and there are often justifiable reasons for turning down even the best of cards... unless they're named Albert, I suppose. xD

I'd like to have some hover-over functionality added to this thing so as to accomplish some of the things people would like formatting-wise. I'm just not sure how to at this point in time.

Regardless, I just added the rundown of a typical take two entry. In total, you're force-fed 12 class bronze, 6 class silver, 8 guaranteed neutrals that are never legendary (as far as I know), and then the 4 combined class golds/leggos and neutral leggos. This is why Dragon tends to lack low-end curve options, Forest tends to lack finishers, etc.

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I like that you're doing this list, and I haven't played Take Two particularly seriously in a couple of expansions (although I used to play it very frequently, and have played it within the past couple of expansions), and while there are some cards that I do agree with, there are many I do not. Some broad stuff I noticed:

- 1 drops are undesirable in arena outside of Dragoncraft, and are all too high

- Some of Dragoncraft's discard mechanics are way too low (which is why Dragoncraft doesn't mind having 1-drops, since they make for good discard fodder), most notably Griffon Knight, which can easily win a game by itself

- Most of Runecraft's spellboost cards are way too low; Multipart experiment, on the other hand, is way too high

- Dark Alice and Enstatued Seraph are way too high; yes, they enforce a strict time limit on the match, but this usually means you're dead.

- 2pp 2/2's and 1/3's, 3pp 2/3's and 3/2's, 4pp 3/4's, 4/3's, and 2/5's, and 5pp 4/5's are almost always average unless they have some major upside, and many cards with these stat lines you labeled as D-tier; these cards deserve to be C-tier at worst

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4 hours ago, Aru're said:

I like that you're doing this list, and I haven't played Take Two particularly seriously in a couple of expansions (although I used to play it very frequently, and have played it within the past couple of expansions), and while there are some cards that I do agree with, there are many I do not. Some broad stuff I noticed:

- 1 drops are undesirable in arena outside of Dragoncraft, and are all too high

- Some of Dragoncraft's discard mechanics are way too low (which is why Dragoncraft doesn't mind having 1-drops, since they make for good discard fodder), most notably Griffon Knight, which can easily win a game by itself

- Most of Runecraft's spellboost cards are way too low; Multipart experiment, on the other hand, is way too high

- Dark Alice and Enstatued Seraph are way too high; yes, they enforce a strict time limit on the match, but this usually means you're dead.

- 2pp 2/2's and 1/3's, 3pp 2/3's and 3/2's, 4pp 3/4's, 4/3's, and 2/5's, and 5pp 4/5's are almost always average unless they have some major upside, and many cards with these stat lines you labeled as D-tier; these cards deserve to be C-tier at worst

I appreciate the feedback. In truth, I was really looking forward to some back and forth about the grades to refine the list.

When you refer to one drops, do you just mean the followers, or are you referring to the spells and amulets as well? Because generally speaking, only the followers are open to being contested in the early stages, and the value of a low drop spell or amulet doesn't tend to diminish much as a game goes on. But the thing is, 1 drop followers are a very exclusive club in the Take Two format now. They can be counted on one hand - Water Fairy, Quick Blader, Deadmoon Disciple, and Wise Merman. One is a no-risk commitment while the other three have mid-to-lategame application beyond their raw play point value and stat line (Merman being the most flaky, which is why he is indeed ranked lower).

I thought I was generous enough in regards to Dragon's discard engine, didn't give any of them low marks at all except for Rites and Dragoon, which are obviously high risk picks unless you've already got some synergy in place. Not to mention those two are often pitted against vastly better neutral legendaries, but I digress. Griffon doesn't really fit the criteria to be bumped up to B in my opinion. It takes a best case scenario of a Luxfang Kit combo to really ever exceed its play point value.

You may be right regarding the spellboost batch; I'm super critical of Rune because I play it more than any other class. It's not that they're awful on average, it's more that Earth Sigil/Earth Rite synergy is front-loaded by comparison and thus less setup intensive and risky. Spellboost-centric drafts can easily snowball to obscene levels with enough luck, though. Multipart Experiment in particular has been key to numerous victories on my part, as it's a card with a very limited set of answers at the stage of the game in which it's played (Eggsplosion, which leaves little to no room for further plays on the same turn; Hungering Horde and Bloodhungry Matriach, both Blood Specific; Wrath Drake, part of the current weakest class; Odile). It's basically Rune's definitive means of going wide to finish an exhausted opponent since Juno is no longer around.

I agree that Dark Alice and Seraph are far from perfect, and in fact often undesirable options. They don't fit any of my other grade definitions as it stands, though - what modifications to those would you suggest, keeping with the general spirit of the ideas laid forth?

You're going to need to be a bit more specific in regards to citing specific cards on this last point. It's one thing for a card to have a solid stat line, but expansions over time have really upped the ante on what is expected from cards that sit at evo phase play point values - and those are the cards I most often lowballed for offering nothing else. A turn 4 Okami or non-boosted Swordmage is just dreadful whether it's got the initiative or not when you consider just how much better the likes of Birdkeeping Disciple, Pyroxene Dragon, or even Corpselord are. I feel Timeless Witch is the most definitively average 4 drop there is, if that helps your understanding.

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Just throwing this out, but I am going to have some free time middle of next week (My girl is running off to London for a week...with out me!:o) so I can tinker with formatting it, if you like? 

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3 hours ago, Elliot Gale said:

When you refer to one drops, do you just mean the followers, or are you referring to the spells and amulets as well? Because generally speaking, only the followers are open to being contested in the early stages, and the value of a low drop spell or amulet doesn't tend to diminish much as a game goes on. But the thing is, 1 drop followers are a very exclusive club in the Take Two format now. They can be counted on one hand - Water Fairy, Quick Blader, Deadmoon Disciple, and Wise Merman. One is a no-risk commitment while the other three have mid-to-lategame application beyond their raw play point value and stat line (Merman being the most flaky, which is why he is indeed ranked lower).

You're also forgetting Felpurr Kitten as a 1-drop.

1-drops almost exclusively count as cards that you actively want to play on turn 1. There are 1pp spells like Insight that you would count as 1-drops, but there are also 1pp spells like Mentor's Teaching that you wouldn't count as 1-drops. Likewise, there are 1pp amulets like Spring Cleaning that you would count as a 1-drop, but there are others like Dragon's Next that you wouldn't consider 1-drops. However, I wouldn't count most of the 1-cost spells and amulets as a whole being necessarily bad, as they tend to have much bigger applications later on in the game (since there are obviously some terrible amulets like Spring Cleaning in there).

3 hours ago, Elliot Gale said:

I thought I was generous enough in regards to Dragon's discard engine, didn't give any of them low marks at all except for Rites and Dragoon, which are obviously high risk picks unless you've already got some synergy in place. Not to mention those two are often pitted against vastly better neutral legendaries, but I digress. Griffon doesn't really fit the criteria to be bumped up to B in my opinion. It takes a best case scenario of a Luxfang Kit combo to really ever exceed its play point value.

Most discard cards don't have effects that exceed their play point value outside of Pyroxene Dragon without Luxfang Kit, but it's not like these discard cards need to get more value than their play point cost in order to be good.

Whenever I play Dragoncraft arena, I aggressively mulligan for Griffon Knights, and find that I almost never lose when I play Griffon Knight on turn 3. It's the only 3-drop in the game that lets you skip turn 2 and have tempo by turn 3 (regardless of whether or not you discard Luxfang Kit), and it absolutely defines matches and is ideal in almost every deck. I'd argue that it deserves at least an A ranking.

3 hours ago, Elliot Gale said:

You may be right regarding the spellboost batch; I'm super critical of Rune because I play it more than any other class. It's not that they're awful on average, it's more that Earth Sigil/Earth Rite synergy is front-loaded by comparison and thus less setup intensive and risky. Spellboost-centric drafts can easily snowball to obscene levels with enough luck, though. Multipart Experiment in particular has been key to numerous victories on my part, as it's a card with a very limited set of answers at the stage of the game in which it's played (Eggsplosion, which leaves little to no room for further plays on the same turn; Hungering Horde and Bloodhungry Matriach, both Blood Specific; Wrath Drake, part of the current weakest class; Odile). It's basically Rune's definitive means of going wide to finish an exhausted opponent since Juno is no longer around.

I just look at Multipart Experiment and find that it's so generally awful by itself to even consider a good card. You need 4 spellboosts in order to break even with its cost relative to its cheaper snowman-summoning alternative in Summon Snow (which needs only 3 spellboosts to break even with its cost), and expensive spells in general really aren't something Runecraft wants to play anyways.

You also forgot several counters to Multipart Experiment. Runecraft has Master Mage Levi and Calamitous Curse, Havencraft has Dark Jeanne, Forbidden Ritual and Ancient Lion Spirit, Dragoncraft can answer with an enhanced Breath of the Salamander and (less consistently) ramp into Israfiel, Bahamut, or Noxious Dragon + Pyroxene Dragon, and Swordcraft has Cyclone Blade on a 2 attack follower. There are quite a few answers, and most of these classes can afford to save the board clears they have until you flood the board with Multipart Experiment.

4 hours ago, Elliot Gale said:

I agree that Dark Alice and Seraph are far from perfect, and in fact often undesirable options. They don't fit any of my other grade definitions as it stands, though - what modifications to those would you suggest, keeping with the general spirit of the ideas laid forth?

Seraph is absolutely a liability in arena. In constructed, you can potentially set up a board state where the board is clear and you can safely set up an Enstatued Seraph, but you never have the opportunity to do that because of the absence of Themis' Decree. In addition, you likely don't have too many countdown reducers in your deck since there are so few available and even fewer that are good, so you have to wait for it to pop, which gives your opponent more than enough turns to win the game. I've personally never lost to someone who played Enstatued Seraph, and I've never won in a game where I played Enstatued Seraph, so I would rate it at F.

Dark Alice I feel is also a liability, although I haven't played against it in arena. The idea is that you have between 8-11 neutrals if you have Dark Alice in your deck and you'll probably draw at least 4-5 neutrals before you reach turn 7. This leaves you with too few cards in your deck to survive before you deck out due to Dark Alice's drawback, meaning you likely will kill yourself by playing Dark Alice. This is just a theory, of course, but I think she's only good in a draft where all three of your other legendary cards are neutrals.

4 hours ago, Elliot Gale said:

You're going to need to be a bit more specific in regards to citing specific cards on this last point. It's one thing for a card to have a solid stat line, but expansions over time have really upped the ante on what is expected from cards that sit at evo phase play point values - and those are the cards I most often lowballed for offering nothing else. A turn 4 Okami or non-boosted Swordmage is just dreadful whether it's got the initiative or not when you consider just how much better the likes of Birdkeeping Disciple, Pyroxene Dragon, or even Corpselord are. I feel Timeless Witch is the most definitively average 4 drop there is, if that helps your understanding.

The point is that most followers with fair statlines for their cost are perfectly average. Some examples: Elf Guard is a perfectly average 2-drop as a 1/3. Its effect isn't always useful, but you are perfectly comfortable playing it on turn 2, and you are much more comfortable playing this than Dwarf Perfumer. Likewise, Okami is a perfectly average 4-drop, because it has a 3/4 statline. Disaster Dragon and Transmogrified Wyrm are also perfectly average 5-drops, as they are both 4/5's, which is fair for their cost.

I noticed that 90% of the time in arena, you often times care more about good statlines than you care about good but situational effects. If I pick Transmogrified Wyrm in arena, it's because I want a 5pp 4/5, not because I want its evolve effect, but I don't pick Hippocampus too often because it is a poorly statted card with an effect you don't always want.

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One more thing I feel you undervalue is card draw. Card draw can win you games in these long, drawn-out games, and helps you find the answers you need in the midgame, and you rank every single class draw card except Carabosse, Daria, and Spring Cleaning at least 1 slot too low.

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Many fair points. I've been mulling over them and will be making quite a few changes to the grades of specific cards. After all, I gave even the most awful of 2 drop 2/2s average grades simply because failure to have one at a critical juncture loses games... don't think I can concede in regards to the one drops or Dark Alice, though. And I'm not sure I ever lowballed card draw unless it was on a spell?

In light of all this I may be bumping up Gruff Mountaineer Captain due to his effect being incredibly punishing against cards with desirable stats.

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Alright, done with the revisions. My next goal is a general breakdown of each class's individual strategies, which should help guide players into making more suitable decisions beyond simply picking for raw standalone value. That said... @Aru're , what's your general approach with Dragon in Take Two? Would you at all recommend selecting it over anything except Forest? I've been practicing T2 religiously in private sessions with good friends of mine (all with distinctly different tastes and preferences) over the past couple weeks, and the class has not won once among us collectively over perhaps hundreds of games. My record against it in arena is also overwhelmingly positive, regardless of what I pick. I don't want to believe there's any horrible bias at play here when I say "don't do it", but that's why I'd like your input on the matter.

Anyone else can feel free to chime in as well.

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3 hours ago, Elliot Gale said:

Alright, done with the revisions. My next goal is a general breakdown of each class's individual strategies, which should help guide players into making more suitable decisions beyond simply picking for raw standalone value. That said... @Aru're , what's your general approach with Dragon in Take Two? Would you at all recommend selecting it over anything except Forest? I've been practicing T2 religiously in private sessions with good friends of mine (all with distinctly different tastes and preferences) over the past couple weeks, and the class has not won once among us collectively over perhaps hundreds of games. My record against it in arena is also overwhelmingly positive, regardless of what I pick. I don't want to believe there's any horrible bias at play here when I say "don't do it", but that's why I'd like your input on the matter.

Anyone else can feel free to chime in as well.

Currently around 3.65 wins per run with Dragon which is middle of the pack in terms of craft performance for me. I suspect people might think the craft is poorer than it actually is because they undervalue ramp when drafting their decks. For example, when drafting for the class, I try to get as many Dragon Oracles and Draconic Fervor's as possible and consider those two cards to be the best cards to draft in their respective rarity slots. Dragoon Scythers and Siegfrieds are close seconds but I consider those two ramp options to still be more essential to my Dragon draft. Also, I think people underestimate the cost of discarding cards and don't have a good sense of how many discard cards they can have in their deck before their draft ends up being self-destructive by making your hand evaporate. The only great discard card that Dragon has is Owl Guardian and the other decent ones are Pyroxene Dragon, Ebon Beast Warrior, and Griffon Knight. All other discard related cards are bad within the class. Dragon might not be a class I recommend to beginner players but it definitely isn't trash. The only two classes I would say that are suffering greatly right now are Rune and Forest.

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I absolutely do prioritize ramp, Scyther, and Siegfried while staying away from the weaker discard options. I also do my best to pick up any neutral advantage generators and Grimnir along the way, plus a fair amount of removal. The end result tends to be the same, though - Rowen runs out of gambits well before anyone else does. It feels like any Dragon draft that lacks Polyphonic or Ouroboros is simply destined for failure, and even those that have them can still fall prey to Sword and Shadow's dramatically better speed and value.

I've gotten more 5-0s in arena with Rune than any other single class. Yes, even post-Tempest Shadow. Rune lost the least when Standard was rotated and has progressively gained more and more removal and card draw so it can use what bombs it picks up to their fullest. I suspect Rune will be even stronger in the event that the format for the new expansion rotates Darkness Evolved, as it will really only be losing one great card and two strong ones vs. several middling to bad options that really poison its silver slots.

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6 hours ago, Elliot Gale said:

I absolutely do prioritize ramp, Scyther, and Siegfried while staying away from the weaker discard options. I also do my best to pick up any neutral advantage generators and Grimnir along the way, plus a fair amount of removal. The end result tends to be the same, though - Rowen runs out of gambits well before anyone else does. It feels like any Dragon draft that lacks Polyphonic or Ouroboros is simply destined for failure, and even those that have them can still fall prey to Sword and Shadow's dramatically better speed and value.

I've gotten more 5-0s in arena with Rune than any other single class. Yes, even post-Tempest Shadow. Rune lost the least when Standard was rotated and has progressively gained more and more removal and card draw so it can use what bombs it picks up to their fullest. I suspect Rune will be even stronger in the event that the format for the new expansion rotates Darkness Evolved, as it will really only be losing one great card and two strong ones vs. several middling to bad options that really poison its silver slots.

I do agree that Dragon drafts rely much more on your neutrals than other classes, but the probability of getting high cost legendaries, class or neutral while drafting as Dragon isn't very uncommon. I just feel like the Neutral cardpool currently actually favors Dragon and is what is keeping it mid-tier, in no world do I consider it as good as Sword or Shadow on average, but definitely not at the same level as some of the more inconsistent classes such as Forest and Rune.

In regards to Rune, I consider it trash tier because many people struggle with it. I'm not surprised that you have a lot of 5-0s with the class because it is the class that has the most polarizing drafts I would say. It has huge potential if you get your right balance of ERs or abundance of spellboost synergy, but the consistency for this tends to be on the lower end compared to other classes that don't require synergy. Also, I have a better winrate with Forest than everything but Sword, but I still throw the craft into trash tier because I don't feel comfortable recommending it to others to play. I guess the question would be, is your spreadsheet catering to the people who are more of beginners in Take Two and really need the help or more experienced players? I just feel like experienced players can usually do well with the majority of the classes e.g. I can do well with anything but Blood and Rune. So I assumed this would be a project that focused more on helping newer players.

Edited by Adubs

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@Adubs It's absolutely targeted more toward beginners, but I feel existing players who want to up their game could benefit as well. It's for both of these reasons that I do not want to deliberately mislead anybody. I can't say "Rune is a consistency nightmare" or "Blood is too risky", or "Haven dies to early game", or that "you can't expect to 5-0 unless you choose Shadow or Sword", because all of these statements are patently false to anyone who has some modicum of experience with playing these classes. I won't be recommending anything short of Sword or Shadow as a top choice to anyone (beginner or not) for the remainder of the format, but "don't choose this" is going too far in regards to most (or all) of the rest, I think. You're forced to do so frequently, after all.

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10 minutes ago, Elliot Gale said:

@Adubs It's absolutely targeted more toward beginners, but I feel existing players who want to up their game could benefit as well. It's for both of these reasons that I do not want to deliberately mislead anybody. I can't say "Rune is a consistency nightmare" or "Blood is too risky", or "Haven dies to early game", or that "you can't expect to 5-0 unless you choose Shadow or Sword", because all of these statements are patently false to anyone who has some modicum of experience with playing these classes. I won't be recommending anything short of Sword or Shadow as a top choice to anyone (beginner or not) for the remainder of the format, but "don't choose this" is going too far in regards to most (or all) of the rest, I think. You're forced to do so frequently, after all.

That makes sense, I didn't want you telling players to never play the craft, but I also thought it would be ignorant to not acknowledge that Rune is currently in a bad spot for Take Two and will be pretty hard to draft without a good amount of experience under your belt. Also, I do hope crafts like Rune and Forest receive some support in the upcoming expansion to bring their average winrates closer to the rest of the classes in Take Two. Not printing broken cards like Axe Destroyer in the bronze slot for a craft that was already at the top would be a good starting point lol. Obviously I don't know all the details on how you will be presenting the strategies for the classes, but I think a section that highlights strengths and weaknesses of crafts would be a good start, just an idea. I fully support your project, I just want a healthy Take Two meta where all classes are around the same level of strength and consistency and it irks me that a craft like Rune that is actually one of the most fun to play in Take Two has such a big disparity in deck quality which discourages players from trying the craft out. I'm pretty sure stats came out and showed it to be the least played craft in Arena by far, even below Forest :(

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@Elliot Gale My general strategy for Dragoncraft has always been to prioritize a handful of discard synergies (namely Griffon Knight and Pyroxene Dragon) over ramp, then prioritize ramp when I don't get those discard cards.

A lot of people tend to undervalue discard mechanics in arena, and it's perfectly understandable why. Discard decks for Dragoncraft have never been particularly good, so why wouldn't it translate to arena? However, many of the discard-oriented cards themselves are very powerful by themselves, are good in a deck when they are used in moderation, and are good in a format where you have to put bad cards into your deck since you can use those bad cards as discard fodder.

Ramp, on the other hand, doesn't always translate well into arena because you don't always have much to ramp into. In this mode, turn 2 Dragon Oracle into turn 3 Death Dragon is actually one of the best plays you can actually pull off on a consistent basis because most of the other reasons you ramp can't be consistently achieved due to the lack of ramp cards (namely Aiela and Sybil)

It's also worth noting that Dragoncraft makes the best use of a majority of the neutral pool for two different reasons: they have best access to the late-game Neutrals because of their ability to ramp and make the best use out of subpar early-game neutrals because of discard.

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Quote

- Changes to cards that appear in Take Two
With the release of Starforged Legends, cards that will appear during the deck building phase of Take Two will be updated accordingly to include bronze basic cards from every class (excluding Neutral) in addition to all the cards from Rise of Bahamut, Tempest of the Gods, Wonderland Dreams, and Starforged Legends. All other cards from previous card packs and the bronze Havencraft spell Manifestation of Faith will not appear.

I was expecting this, but now that it's confirmed, I'll be wiping the contents of Darkness Evolved and inserting the contents of Starforged Legends on release day. I'll also start rolling out those individual class tips I was talking about all those weeks ago without having to mention cards that are getting the boot in a matter of days. lol

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The Starforged update is finished... or close to it. There are a handful of cards I have tentatively not rated - primarily of the late game variety - that can have such wildly different impact from match to match that I feel I will need some table time with them to give an objectively fair rating. Anyone can feel free to chip in their two cents in regards to these and any other new cards in the Starforged release.

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Just finished another review of the ratings, and among other things I got around to ranking the likes of Giant Chimera and King Elephant, which ended up being about as unwieldy as expected on average.

I'll probably start with Rune when it comes to the individual class tips.

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I think you underestimate crazed executioner, that card is at least a B and possibly an A. No way it's only C. With the cost of 2 hp, it can most likely give you the tempo if dropped on turn 3.

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Finally updated for Chronogenesis. Cards that are no longer in the pool have been removed as well.

My impressions thus far are that the classes line up like so:

1) Shadow, Blood

2) Forest, Dragon, Haven

3) Sword, Portal

4) Rune

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