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Nerf Eachtar

Nerf Eachtar

154 posts in this topic

4 hours ago, Morrigan said:

...(insert a long sigh here)

There are several posts above that explain exactly why Eachtar is a completely suitable and fine card.

-He is a supreme punishment to Aggro that just can't finish - Good

-Filling a board? Nothing that hasn't been a staple of Shadowcraft since Standard. The buffs are completely fine. He is played in a Midrange deck. That is what Midrange decks are supposed to do. It seems that people would prefer that Midrange Shadow just rolls over and dies if the opponent manages to get board control? For all intents he is a variant off of Deaths Breath with a body.

-Contrary to popular belief Eachtar is not an autoplay on t7. Not sure why this is a thing. Roughly ~50% he isn't.

With all the belly aching about how quick games are over by t7, its odd that a deck that can combat that and reverse it is complained about.

Ehhh....

 

Those are some rather dubious claims. I see only one post above explain why he is fine and it basically goes "Because i said so" no real arguments as to why Eacthar is fine

 

He isn't much of a supreme punishment there to aggro as much as he just wrecks any other midrange deck and most control decks . He literally does nothing vs aggro, in fact if you look at Midrange shadow's stats.. It only loses to aggro

 

And.. Shadowcraft was never good at filling a board until Tempest of the gods, that was rather it, why they weren't really that good before hand. Because they lacked the ability to fill the board, that was Swordcraft's shtick which they subsequently completely ignored or undermined whereas they gave shadowcraft 3 ways of flooding the board on turn 7.

 

And He is only not an autoplay on turn 7 if you don't have him there, because either you use him to hit face hard, clear the board or fill the board. There are very few scenarios where playing him on turn 7 is not an option, and the vast majority involve him not being in the hand, which is currently really difficult due to the insane amount of card draw.

 

Overall Eachtar is.. Basically a mix of Otohime and Walfrid combined into one card, toss in that there are several other very strong cards for shadow at the moment and he only becomes stronger through that sheer context and *that* is the primary reason why Eachtar is a bit too.. good. He crushes midrange and control because he can just easily buff a board and wreck anything else or he can push an insane amount of damage to the enemy leader.

 

If there were other cards that could compete with him, sure no problem. But that's the thing, no other legendary can remotely contest him. No other legendary can do what he does. So to claim he is a fix to aggro and that people are pointlessly complaining about him seems.. A bit detached to be honest because it in no way reflects what eachtar actually does which is basically crush anything that isn't faster than turn 7. He is one of the reasons there needs to be so many aggro decks because midrange and control gets destroyed.

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Ahem, Albert competes with him in terms of power level.  Also legendaries are supposed to be unique, so it is fine if there isn't another legendary that is super similar.  

There hasn't been a good reason why he should be singled out and nerfed among all the power cards, other than mostly salt.  on the other hand, there have been plenty of good reasons given why he doesn't deserve to be nerfed.  He is the last bastion against a terribly oppressive 100% aggro meta, where the race to face is all that matters.  He is not a villain despite his appearance, but a hero.  The beautiful Nepthys brought a strong control option to the class finally, and Eachtar gave them a strong midrange option.  Before this king and queen brought life to the corpse that was Luna, shadow was reduced to memes and aggro mostly.  

This head can't be taken!  You tell them Eachtar, you tell them!

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Imperial Dane said:

Ehhh....

 

Those are some rather dubious claims. I see only one post above explain why he is fine and it basically goes "Because i said so" no real arguments as to why Eacthar is fine

 

He isn't much of a supreme punishment there to aggro as much as he just wrecks any other midrange deck and most control decks . He literally does nothing vs aggro, in fact if you look at Midrange shadow's stats.. It only loses to aggro

 

And.. Shadowcraft was never good at filling a board until Tempest of the gods, that was rather it, why they weren't really that good before hand. Because they lacked the ability to fill the board, that was Swordcraft's shtick which they subsequently completely ignored or undermined whereas they gave shadowcraft 3 ways of flooding the board on turn 7.

 

And He is only not an autoplay on turn 7 if you don't have him there, because either you use him to hit face hard, clear the board or fill the board. There are very few scenarios where playing him on turn 7 is not an option, and the vast majority involve him not being in the hand, which is currently really difficult due to the insane amount of card draw.

 

Overall Eachtar is.. Basically a mix of Otohime and Walfrid combined into one card, toss in that there are several other very strong cards for shadow at the moment and he only becomes stronger through that sheer context and *that* is the primary reason why Eachtar is a bit too.. good. He crushes midrange and control because he can just easily buff a board and wreck anything else or he can push an insane amount of damage to the enemy leader.

 

If there were other cards that could compete with him, sure no problem. But that's the thing, no other legendary can remotely contest him. No other legendary can do what he does. So to claim he is a fix to aggro and that people are pointlessly complaining about him seems.. A bit detached to be honest because it in no way reflects what eachtar actually does which is basically crush anything that isn't faster than turn 7. He is one of the reasons there needs to be so many aggro decks because midrange and control gets destroyed.

Death's Breath has been filling boards with Wards since Standard. Chimera as well. Not to mention the various ways Shadow spells can synergize to fill a board.

Hell, Morde. T9 and 2 Urds? 

It's nothing new for Shadow.

Not for nothing but Eachy is pretty much Mid Shadows wincon so...

IMG_3275.JPG.07b8a79b43f881b8c45d3a3fe3d6905d.JPG

Edited by Morrigan

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Posted (edited)

Don't think we are in an aggro meta because of Eachtar either...thats a bit of an exaggeration.

If it is any cards "fault" look at Aegis. But more than likely it is because Aggro is fast and Johnny Points likes that.

Edited by Morrigan

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Posted (edited)

Aegis?  That didn't prevent the dragon meta of last expansion, besides which Albert was finishing off opponents on 9 and Silverbolt the same.  Aegis doesn't really impact the game at all, powerful finishers are par for course.

The aggrofest we have currently is due to more than its natural speed, it is do to the incredible win rates many aggro decks are putting up.  Aggro is always fast, but it isn't always this dominant.  

Edited by fangore

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20 minutes ago, fangore said:

Aegis?  That didn't prevent the dragon meta of last expansion, besides which Albert was finishing off opponents on 9 and Silverbolt the same.  Aegis doesn't really impact the game at all, powerful finishers are par for course.

The aggrofest we have currently is due to more than its natural speed, it is do to the incredible win rates many aggro decks are putting up.  Aggro is always fast, but it isn't always this dominant.  

I was being facetious :P

The meta is trying to catch up. Christ, I played someone today who t2 played a Minotaur.

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2 hours ago, Imperial Dane said:

 

And.. Shadowcraft was never good at filling a board until Tempest of the gods, that was rather it, why they weren't really that good before hand. Because they lacked the ability to fill the board, that was Swordcraft's shtick which they subsequently completely ignored or undermined whereas they gave shadowcraft 3 ways of flooding the board on turn 7.

 

And He is only not an autoplay on turn 7 if you don't have him there, because either you use him to hit face hard, clear the board or fill the board. There are very few scenarios where playing him on turn 7 is not an option, and the vast majority involve him not being in the hand, which is currently really difficult due to the insane amount of card draw.

 

Firstly shadow has always been about building a field and making it as sticky/unkillable as possible. This is part of the reason why prior to Nep and Eacthar people joked that Shadow was just a jank version of swordcraft. :/

Anyway, Eachtar is not an autoplay on turn 7 because there are many factors that need to be considered such as current field state, shadow count, life totals etc. You CAN play him when you are behind but sometimes warding up with deaths breath or pacing yourself in general is better. You CAN play him when you are ahead but unless you have leathal you put yourself in a position where if the opponent can answer your board you could be screwed since you burned your eachtar. Seriously, its like you never played the deck before and are just blinded by the salt. 

2 hours ago, Morrigan said:

Don't think we are in an aggro meta because of Eachtar either...thats a bit of an exaggeration.

If it is any cards "fault" look at Aegis. But more than likely it is because Aggro is fast and Johnny Points likes that.

Its not an exaggeration its an outright lie. The reason we are in an aggro meta is because of how cygames has been designing their cards which blatantly favors that playstyle. All the good control cards can easily be slipped into aggro and midrange while losing NOTHING. (plus we have dshift ever lurking and waiting for that mythical Control meta)

Anyway the most amusing thing about all of this is that not only are people crying for nerfs for a deck that is tier 1 but not dominating but the reasoning is basically "the card is too strong for its cost" which is the exact same reason cards like snow white and oro were hit but NOBODY accepted that reason then. I wonder why it is that things are suddenly different just because its eachtar? 

Are people really confusing tier 1 with "broken" or are they a bunch of hypocrites that cannot apply the same standards they use to condemn one card to another? 

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There really isn't an aggro fest anymore tho, the only prevalent aggro deck left is Aggro Blood.

If anything we are in a very midrange-ish heavy meta which are also the decks with the highest winrates because decks like Shadow and Neutral Rune like Bakabridget said before have no real weaknesses. They have a strong early game but enough card draw that makes it so they don't run out of steam as easily as aggro and have enough strong cards late game that they can go up against control.

You mentioned Albert being a auto turn 5 play with is just not true, Albert is only good going face, he is excellent at that but if you use him to trade he is basically worse Mountain captain. If any Sword card is a autoplay on 5 it would be Council which is usable in almost any situation with no drawbacks. Those kind of cards are much more troublesome, and that is the case with Eachtar except much worse.

There's literally no time where Eachtar is a bad play except if you have less than 3 shadows and no followers, which will pretty much never happen because if someone cleared your board you should have the shadows.

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20 minutes ago, Chappie said:

 

Are people really confusing tier 1 with "broken" or are they a bunch of hypocrites that cannot apply the same standards they use to condemn one card to another? 

Hypocrites certainly.  This is what I was saying with Snow white and Ouroboros, about cherrypicking and judging cards on their own as 'too strong'.  It really is just laugable, but I actually play Albert and against Albert, I play Eachtar and against Eachtar, I play Aegis and against Aegis.  I play every class thoroughly, very annoying hearing people who've only seen one side of it and have the audacity to voice an opinion as something to be taken seriously.  

8 minutes ago, Patrickzzz said:

There really isn't an aggro fest anymore tho, the only prevalent aggro deck left is Aggro Blood.

If anything we are in a very midrange-ish heavy meta which are also the decks with the highest winrates because decks like Shadow and Neutral Rune like Bakabridget said before have no real weaknesses. They have a strong early game but enough card draw that makes it so they don't run out of steam as easily as aggro and have enough strong cards late game that they can go up against control.

You mentioned Albert being a auto turn 5 play with is just not true, Albert is only good going face, he is excellent at that but if you use him to trade he is basically worse Mountain captain. If any Sword card is a autoplay on 5 it would be Council which is usable in almost any situation with no drawbacks. Those kind of cards are much more troublesome, and that is the case with Eachtar except much worse.

There's literally no time where Eachtar is a bad play except if you have less than 3 shadows and no followers, which will pretty much never happen because if someone cleared your board you should have the shadows.

Did you not read the above post?  There are plenty of times when Eachtar is not as good a play as say Imperial Thane or something else.   When both boards are empty are you going to play Eachtar or are you going to play death's breath?  If they have one follower and you have none, are you going to play Zombie party or just plop down Eachtar?  

On Albert, Mountain captain doesn't have an enhance 9, which can remove 2 substantial followers and take no damage, or hit the face for half the opponent's health.  Albert, unlike Eachtar, or Aegis, or D shift, or other common cards people complain about goes into every sword deck and will likely go in to every sword deck for all time unless they release an even more powerful storm follower at the same cost.  

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Posted (edited)

I didn't say there isn't better cards to play, the problem is that if you don't it will never be a issue because he is just that amazing.

If no one has a board and you have a Thane, great you can play that over Eachtar, but what if you only have Eachtar? Still no problem now you have a huge board. He will always be a great play without exception as long as you have Shadows.

Also Albert going on every deck is an argument about variety not strenght, if there is a broken card that can only be used in a very specific kind of deck it doesn't make the card or the deck any less broken. And the other way around works as well, cards that goes into pretty much every deck aren't broken just because of that.

Edited by Patrickzzz

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I literally, not even 5 minutes ago, just lost to an Elena/Tenko deck and I played two Eachys. One at full power and the other with 6 shadows. Got outpaced and my initial draw was garbage (Couldn't play anything until t3 -_-)

The Godlord Eachtar failed me!

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11 minutes ago, Morrigan said:

I literally, not even 5 minutes ago, just lost to an Elena/Tenko deck and I played two Eachys. One at full power and the other with 6 shadows. Got outpaced and my initial draw was garbage (Couldn't play anything until t3 -_-)

The Godlord Eachtar failed me!

I'm tempted to try Elana just for Tenko's voice acting l0l. I never played the deck, even when it was popular (didn't get Elana from pack pulls). I feel like it might not be bad in this meta.

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5 minutes ago, Patrickzzz said:

If no one has a board and you have a Thane, great you can play that over Eachtar, but what if you only have Eachtar? Still no problem now you have a huge board. He will always be a great play without exception as long as you have Shadows.

Ever hear of the concept of opportunity cost? Playing Eachtar on an empty board gives you value but it also comes with losing out on the power buffs and rush which you may need later which would be why you should consider playing something else even if it is inferior in overall impact so you can get greater results later.  The fact that Eachtar almost always gets value when played doesnt mean he is an auto-play when available.

Again, by your OWN LOGIC, Albert is an auto-play card turn 5 (because like with thane, we are assuming all superior plays are gone because..... reasons. So no council or Cliff etc.) because even if he has to hit a follower instead of the face he is still getting great value provided he can kill. 

So by your own rules here, Albert has to go just like Eacthar and pretty much every over value card in the game. 

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3 minutes ago, Yue said:

I'm tempted to try Elana just for Tenko's voice acting l0l. I never played the deck, even when it was popular (didn't get Elana from pack pulls). I feel like it might not be bad in this meta.

You should work with @Othello He is in dire straits to make Elena work proper again xD

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1 minute ago, Chappie said:

Ever hear of the concept of opportunity cost? Playing Eachtar on an empty board gives you value but it also comes with losing out on the power buffs and rush which you may need later which would be why you should consider playing something else even if it is inferior in overall impact so you can get greater results later.  The fact that Eachtar almost always gets value when played doesnt mean he is an auto-play when available.

Again, by your OWN LOGIC, Albert is an auto-play card turn 5 (because like with thane, we are assuming all superior plays are gone because..... reasons. So no council or Cliff etc.) because even if he has to hit a follower instead of the face he is still getting great value provided he can kill. 

So by your own rules here, Albert has to go just like Eacthar and pretty much every over value card in the game. 

Firstly, i never said he was autoplay just that he is always a good play, again people can't seem to tell the difference. and Secondly what???

Opportunity cost is a gameplay choice it has nothing to do with card strenght. Otherwise you're just arguing that Eachtar isn't broken because you can choose not to make a great play because you can make a even better one later. By that logic no card will ever be broken. "Oh i have a perfect condition for Albert on turn 5 but it can be even better at turn 9 so he isn't broken right?"

The entire point i'm trying to make is that with Eachtar his worst play is still a great one. He can be played in literally any situation and be good. If the opponent is completely dominating the board using Albert to trade is just a bad play. But there's simply no board conditions where using Eachtar is bad.

Literally the only time he is bad is if you have no followers and no shadows at the same time which is extremely unlikely.

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22 minutes ago, Yue said:

I'm tempted to try Elana just for Tenko's voice acting l0l. I never played the deck, even when it was popular (didn't get Elana from pack pulls). I feel like it might not be bad in this meta.

Is it a seiyuu doing it?  I do like the Japanese voice, or are you speaking of the charming southern drawl of the english?  

 

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Posted (edited)

8 minutes ago, fangore said:

Is it a seiyuu doing it?  I do like the Japanese voice, or are you speaking of the charming southern drawl of the english?  

The English voice. I think I like different accents in general (also liked Ceridwen). It keeps things fresh.

 

I just threw together a first draft for an Elana deck. [link]

Just played my first game, I matched up against Dimension Shift. I got the nuts with turn 2 Aria turn 3 Elana (turn 4 Pure Healer) turn 5 Tenko. Other player didn't have Kaleidoscopic for my Aria so I got a turn 5 concede l0l.

599645b016128_ScreenShot2017-08-17at6_37_58PM.png.f3963fce08324d24d7db8b4d0360460f.png

Caption: Moments before conceding.

Edited by Yue

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11 minutes ago, Patrickzzz said:

Firstly, i never said he was autoplay just that he is always a good play, again people can't seem to tell the difference. and Secondly what???

Opportunity cost is a gameplay choice it has nothing to do with card strenght. Otherwise you're just arguing that Eachtar isn't broken because you can choose not to make a great play because you can make a even better one later. By that logic no card will ever be broken. "Oh i have a perfect condition for Albert on turn 5 but it can be even better at turn 9 so he isn't broken right?"

The entire point i'm trying to make is that with Eachtar his worst play is still a great one. He can be played in literally any situation and be good. If the opponent is completely dominating the board using Albert to trade is just a bad play. But there's simply no board conditions where using Eachtar is bad.

Literally the only time he is bad is if you have no followers and no shadows at the same time which is extremely unlikely.

A "good play" is the best possible play, anything else is a misplay. If you have something in your hand that is better to play then Eacthar is not a 'good play". good lord....

The opportunity cost thing was simply to highlight that there were situations where he was sub-optimal to play, not that he wasnt getting value. This had nothing to do with if he was broken or not. 

As a matter of fact, his individual card strength is meaningless because HIS DECK IS NOT DOMINATING. You guys are seriously considering hitting a card because you feel its too strong and not because its actually negatively effecting the game. And the worst part is, you completely ignore all the other cards that fall into the same category of "too strong" simply because their decks are not dominating. This is literally singling out Eachtar because of salt and hurt feels. 

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No it really isn't. You're completely ignoring the fact that sometimes you just won't have the "better play". If you don't have Thane, Death's Breath or whatever in your hand Eachtar will still be a great play no matter the situation. A card just shouldn't always be useful.

I do agree that it's not breaking the game because his deck is not dominating like Blood last month for instance, but i already said before that i care about card design and not only competitive deck strenght, which is why as far as i'm concerned he still deserves to be nerfed. I'm not singling him out for being too strong, cards like Albert and Aegis can be stronger in the right circumstances but will also be bad on others. His problem is that he is very strong in every circumstance and has no real weaknesses and that's just bad design.

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3 minutes ago, Patrickzzz said:

No it really isn't. You're completely ignoring the fact that sometimes you just won't have the "better play". If you don't have Thane, Death's Breath or whatever in your hand Eachtar will still be a great play no matter the situation. A card just shouldn't always be useful.

I do agree that it's not breaking the game because his deck is not dominating like Blood last month for instance, but i already said before that i care about card design and not only competitive deck strenght, which is why as far as i'm concerned he still deserves to be nerfed. I'm not singling him out for being too strong, cards like Albert and Aegis can be stronger in the right circumstances but will also be bad on others. His problem is that he is very strong in every circumstance and has no real weaknesses and that's just bad design.

He's not strong when you don't have shadows or board, at that point basically nothing will save you l0l.

I think that Eachtar, along with Sibyl, might be the strongest individual cards. Although I'd personally be happy if Eachtar got nerfed, I'm not sure it's needed right now.

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Ok so my opponent just blew up my board and I have 4~5 shadows left because I played deaths breath the turn prior/ I am now staring at a rampaging bahamut. 

Eachtar in this situation is a hilariously bad play over just tossing out 2~3 bodies (these cards can be literally anything) and grinding up shadows to actually kill it later on. 

This above example is just one of many of where Eachtar is not an amazing play even without factoring in other cards that are better then it in that situation. 

As for the whole "caring about card design" thing, sure that is cute and all but its not any solid grounds to hit them. You hit cards because they are an actual detriment to the games health and are negatively impacting the metagame, not because you find their design to be terrible. I personally find Dshifts card design to be completely abysmal but you dont see me saying it should be nerfed. 

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Posted (edited)

Uh, why dont we just ask nerfing all legendaries and call it a day? Nobody's gonna complain it right? hehehe..

Edited by Greevilz

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Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, Morrigan said:

Death's Breath has been filling boards with Wards since Standard. Chimera as well. Not to mention the various ways Shadow spells can synergize to fill a board.

Hell, Morde. T9 and 2 Urds? 

It's nothing new for Shadow.

Not for nothing but Eachy is pretty much Mid Shadows wincon so...

IMG_3275.JPG.07b8a79b43f881b8c45d3a3fe3d6905d.JPG

Bone Chimera is from Darkness evolved, otherwise you got burst from standard and a few addititional summons, but nothing that actually fills aboard besides death's breath which does it defensively. That is one spell. Which means it is not a staple of shadowcraft , not sure where you are getting these ideas from.

 

And you are talking about a rather specific and unpractical combo with mordecai there as well which won't work in most circumstances :P By that logic anyone could be about filling the board with sufficient imagination.

 

And Eacthar is pretty much the win condition for any shadowcraft deck besides nephtys, and even those have been known to include Eachtar because he is just that good, hell Aggro shadow used to last expansion and i am not surprised if they do it in Wonderland Dreams as well.

 

As for your image.. Err ? Why ? No need to be so defensive about it, if you like Eachtar, fine.. But, he is a problematic legendary, i should know because i've played him a ton and played against him a ton. He just wrecks anything else before him, there is a reason tournaments are half midrange shadow because it just beats whatever is put infront of it in most cases. You can try and legitimize him as much as you want, but he is a legendary that can fill the board up, give it rush and +2/0. No other legendary really works on that powerlevel.

 

@Chappie And in the vast majority of cases, that won't matter. Eachtar will be played and gain control of the board. It is extremely difficult for a shadowcraft player not to have sufficient shadows by turn 7. You are trying to make it sound extremely difficult to play midrange shadow when in reality it isn't. It's.. pretty easy.

 

And people have been asking for Eachtar to be nerfed for ages. It's nothing new, nothing hypocritical. Getting awfully defensive there aren't we ? Seriously he has been dominant for almost half a year now and your action is to call people liars ? Not a convincing argument when you have to hurl attacks at anyone who disagrees with you. 

Edited by Imperial Dane

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Posted (edited)

6 hours ago, Chappie said:

 

Anyway the most amusing thing about all of this is that not only are people crying for nerfs for a deck that is tier 1 but not dominating but the reasoning is basically "the card is too strong for its cost" which is the exact same reason cards like snow white and oro were hit but NOBODY accepted that reason then. I wonder why it is that things are suddenly different just because its eachtar? 

Dude, are you blind or what? Did you read changes thread?
EVERY ONE said it was acceptable, understandble nerf and was positive about it. 

People were surpirsed that Hectar doged nerfs. FFS reddit was flooded with Hectar memes for 3 days!

Edited by zzMedVeDzz
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3 minutes ago, zzMedVeDzz said:

Dude, are you blind or what? Did you read changes thread?
EVERY ONE said it was acceptable, understandble nerf and was positive about it. 

People were surpirsed that Hectar doged nerfs. FFS reddit was flooded with Hectar memes for 3 days!

Yup, hechtar dodging nerfs was the big meme for days.. and still is. 

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