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Aru're

Neutral Control Shadowcraft concept

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Posted (edited)

I had an interesting idea for a control deck that uses Rise of the Dead and Poisoned Apple of Rebirth to get massive value out of a wide variety of high-impact early neutral cards and uses Gilgamesh (along with Rise of the Dead and Poisoned Apple of Rebirth) as its primary win condition.

There are just a couple problems

- I have never built a successful control deck before, nor do I have experience playing control decks

- The concept for this deck is so ridiculous that I want some help theorycrafting it and, if other people feel like trying something crazy, testing it

As a result, I wanted to throw out the concept of the deck and a sample early decklist and see what people had to say about it.

EDIT: Here's the most recent decklist I've been testing:

Decklist

Edited by Aru're
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Interesting deck. I have all the cards, so I could try it. :)

I don't see the point of Poisonous Apple though. If you want to play it on Gilgamesh, you have to wait until turn 10, as you can't expect him to live one turn, that late in the game.

If you want to play control, some more early removal might be needed (maybe a couple of Undying Resentments, or Pacts of the Nethergod).

Lizardman seems underwhelming. He trades down to a plethora of things. Why did you include him?

Executioner is an interesting choice, I'll definitely try him.

Goblinmount would be better if you had some more Last Words. At the moment you can only proc Ding Dong... unless you're planning to use him in conjunction with Poisonous Apple, but it seems a waste... :|

In any case, I'll try the list and let you know. :)

 

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Posted (edited)

Just a few questions and observations:

I like the idea of Apple's range, in particular with Ding Dong, Uni and Gil.

Lizardman seems a little out of place, you might be better off replacing him with Attendant or Lurching, as they are more on the Control side. And will also make Goblinmount have more potential as well.

Executioner o_o I think Necroassassin would swing better here, even moreso if you Apple Ding Dong or if you add Attendant/Lurching into the mix.

Getting Gil on Apple is a bit crazy, only because your Control scheme right now is going to run out of steam before thats reasonable.

Edited by Morrigan

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5 minutes ago, midgardsormr said:

Interesting deck. I have all the cards, so I could try it. :)

I don't see the point of Poisonous Apple though. If you want to play it on Gilgamesh, you have to wait until turn 10, as you can't expect him to live one turn, that late in the game.

If you want to play control, some more early removal might be needed (maybe a couple of Undying Resentments, or Pacts of the Nethergod).

Lizardman seems underwhelming. He trades down to a plethora of things. Why did you include him?

Executioner is an interesting choice, I'll definitely try him.

Goblinmount would be better if you had some more Last Words. At the moment you can only proc Ding Dong... unless you're planning to use him in conjunction with Poisonous Apple, but it seems a waste... :|

In any case, I'll try the list and let you know. :)

 

The poisoned apple isn't just for Gilgamesh.

You can put it on any ward (except Khawy and Death's Breath zombies, who are shadowcraft cards) as miniature Frontguard Generals (or as a super Frontguard General in Goblinmount Demon's case). Putting it on Unica also guarantees you some healing, and putting it on Bellringer Angel gets you more card draw than it normally would.

I have to agree with Lizardman here after a couple games. I included him as another 3pp neutral ward for control, but he's just not cutting it, and I probably should replace it with some early removal.

Goblinmount Demon is in the deck under the assumption that none of your followers will last more than 1 turn and is a neutral follower for control decks. You don't need last words effects since your followers will be dead before he triggers.

Also don't underestimate his potential with Poisoned Apple of Rebirth. Frontguard General is a staple in many control Swordcraft lists because he's a sticky ward, and Goblinmount Demon with Poisoned Apple of Rebirth is even stickier.

6 minutes ago, Morrigan said:

Just a few questions and observations:

I like the idea of Apple's range, in particular with Ding Dong, Uni and Gil.

Lizardman seems a little out of place, you might be better off replacing him with Attendant or Lurching, as they are more on the Control side. And will also make Goblinmount have more potential as well.

Executioner o_o I think Necroassassin would swing better here, even moreso if you Apple, Ding Dong or if you add Attendant/Lurching into the mix.

I agree that Lizardman isn't particularly great here after some testing but I disagree with the replacements. If I wanted to put in more control elements, I would put in another ward like Spartoi Soldier or Feathered Patroller. Putting in Lurching Corpse or Attendant of Night seem like they wouldn't always be good, especially since Goblinmount Demon is the only activator for them.

I think Executioner is better for the deck because it gives some card draw and is guaranteed more targets whereas Necroassassin isn't guaranteed to have targets. For a control deck they practically have the same stats since 0 attack will kill everything 3 attack when the 0 attack follower has bane, and there aren't a whole lot of early targets to reliably get Necroassassin value.

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swap the lizard man out for carrots. Its a good target for apple and can be safely killed with mount without losing advantage plus it hels maintain a board instead of praying to get value out of Nightmares draws. 

Speaking of draws, skull cradle isnt a bad choice here even though she isnt a neutral. I would probably drop rise of the dead for her instead because it can be a brick until late game when you have highwaymen in the grave. 

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18 minutes ago, Aru're said:

The poisoned apple isn't just for Gilgamesh.

You can put it on any ward (except Khawy and Death's Breath zombies, who are shadowcraft cards) as miniature Frontguard Generals (or as a super Frontguard General in Goblinmount Demon's case). Putting it on Unica also guarantees you some healing, and putting it on Bellringer Angel gets you more card draw than it normally would.

I have to agree with Lizardman here after a couple games. I included him as another 3pp neutral ward for control, but he's just not cutting it, and I probably should replace it with some early removal.

Goblinmount Demon is in the deck under the assumption that none of your followers will last more than 1 turn and is a neutral follower for control decks. You don't need last words effects since your followers will be dead before he triggers.

Also don't underestimate his potential with Poisoned Apple of Rebirth. Frontguard General is a staple in many control Swordcraft lists because he's a sticky ward, and Goblinmount Demon with Poisoned Apple of Rebirth is even stickier.

I agree that Lizardman isn't particularly great here after some testing but I disagree with the replacements. If I wanted to put in more control elements, I would put in another ward like Spartoi Soldier or Feathered Patroller. Putting in Lurching Corpse or Attendant of Night seem like they wouldn't always be good, especially since Goblinmount Demon is the only activator for them.

I think Executioner is better for the deck because it gives some card draw and is guaranteed more targets whereas Necroassassin isn't guaranteed to have targets. For a control deck they practically have the same stats since 0 attack will kill everything 3 attack when the 0 attack follower has bane, and there aren't a whole lot of early targets to reliably get Necroassassin value.

Definitely see Patroller as useful. Spartoi Solly was a thought, but considering you have Grim, with a potential Apple, he has the better attack, range and stickiness over Solly.

The whole lurching/attendant/necro package suggested is simply for starting your ping face damage. Most players are loathe to kill them, because of their last words, couple with as many wards you have they are free damage at the start and into midgame, youre whacking a follower or getting a Lich behind Goblinmount. You could easily take Necroassassin out of the equation.

Have you thought of Cerby at all?

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5 minutes ago, Morrigan said:

Definitely see Patroller as useful. Spartoi Solly was a thought, but considering you have Grim, with a potential Apple, he has the better attack, range and stickiness over Solly.

The whole lurching/attendant/necro package suggested is simply for starting your ping face damage. Most players are loathe to kill them, because of their last words, couple with as many wards you have they are free damage at the start and into midgame, youre whacking a follower or getting a Lich behind Goblinmount. You could easily take Necroassassin out of the equation.

Have you thought of Cerby at all?

I considered Cerberus, but felt that Goblinmount Demon would be a better fit into the deck and didn't feel that I had enough room for multiple 5-drops.

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I literally just got out of a game where a Goblinmount Demon with Poisoned Apple saved me from a DShift combo with 2 DShifts. It reduced my opponent's combo from 17 damage, which would have killed me (I was at 15), to a more reasonable 10 (which not only was not lethal but also kept me out of range for multiple lethal setups). A few turns later I won by deck out.

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22 minutes ago, Aru're said:

I literally just got out of a game where a Goblinmount Demon with Poisoned Apple saved me from a DShift combo with 2 DShifts. It reduced my opponent's combo from 17 damage, which would have killed me (I was at 15), to a more reasonable 10 (which not only was not lethal but also kept me out of range for multiple lethal setups). A few turns later I won by deck out.

xD Awesome.

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@Aru're, tried the deck with a couple of tweaks.

-3 Rise, -3 Lizardman, -1 Teena, -1 Gilgamesh, +2 Spartoi Soldier, +2 Odile, +2 Andras (yes, Andras xD), +1 Goblinmount, +1 Pact of the Nethergod.

I agree on Apple + Goblinmount. It's probably the best combo in here, tested out myself against Mid Shadow. Goblinmount nullified Eachtar.

I added 2 Andras to increase a bit the number of finishers. Odile is very good as well (suffer, Mid Shadow!), and those 2 face damage are just there to help you finish your opponent.

I had to remove 1 Teena because I only have 2.

Overall it's an interesting deck, but against Alicecraft going second you suffer a lot. Especially Blood and Haven, their board grow out of control pretty easily.

 

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add Dread Sea. This **** is nuts with Kwavy + gilg/zeus

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2 hours ago, midgardsormr said:

@Aru're, tried the deck with a couple of tweaks.

-3 Rise, -3 Lizardman, -1 Teena, -1 Gilgamesh, +2 Spartoi Soldier, +2 Odile, +2 Andras (yes, Andras xD), +1 Goblinmount, +1 Pact of the Nethergod.

I agree on Apple + Goblinmount. It's probably the best combo in here, tested out myself against Mid Shadow. Goblinmount nullified Eachtar.

I added 2 Andras to increase a bit the number of finishers. Odile is very good as well (suffer, Mid Shadow!), and those 2 face damage are just there to help you finish your opponent.

I had to remove 1 Teena because I only have 2.

Overall it's an interesting deck, but against Alicecraft going second you suffer a lot. Especially Blood and Haven, their board grow out of control pretty easily.

I originally wanted Andras in the deck, but I really wanted the Rise of the Dead + Andras combo to come out on the same turn. I then noticed Gilgamesh comes out turn 8 and the same storm damage to justify putting it in there, but if you aren't running Rise of the Dead then Andras probably would be a good fit (although Rise of the Dead + Khawy is ridiculous against aggressive decks).

Absolutely agree that Lizardman is bad, and already replaced all three copies with Spartoi Soldiers. Also agree that the deck needs another Goblinmount Demon.

2 hours ago, zzMedVeDzz said:

add Dread Sea. This **** is nuts with Kwavy + gilg/zeus

I personally can't add her in since I don't have any copies of her, but I'm not sure if there's room for her in the deck.

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I tried a variant of @midgardsormr's version with a few key differences.

Compared to the original concept, I took out 1 Teena, 1 Gilgamesh, 3 Foul Tempests, 3 Lizardmen, 3 Rise of the Deads, and 1 Death's Breath for 1 Nightmare Executioner, 3 Spartoi Soldiers, 2 Andrases (if I can describe him in plural like that), 2 Odiles, 1 Goblinmount, and 3 Deathbrands.

I cut the Foul Tempests because in this type of fast meta, there aren't enough weaker followers to kill without the necromancy effect either because they are neutral and get buffed out of range by Alice/Feria or because they are big followers fit for a control deck. Deathbrand helps deal with early followers with its normal effect and late followers with its necromancy effect.

Andras has really helped out as a second finisher in some cases, as long as I remember that it's storm effect is a necromancy effect and not always active. Odile hasn't been helping too often, as a 6/1 that evolves itself and deals face damage isn't all too amazing since whenever I need a board clear it does nothing and if I don't need a board clear it doesn't do enough. I haven't had a good reason to remove her for something else, but I feel like she isn't doing enough and could be replaced by something else.

Goblinmount is way too good with Poisoned Apple to not include 3 copies in the deck, while another Nightmare Executioner was added because I couldn't draw my win conditions consistently. Teena was removed because she's only useful in aggro matchups, and it was always superior to evolve Nightmare Executioner in these matchups because it has bane and card draw.

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I guess I'll be the first to ask, but do you own any neutral Alices? Even though it wouldn't be the best follower to play on curve when trying to play defensively, it would give an actual attack stat on Bellringer, it'll move up grimnir's stats so it isn't taken out by 3 defense removal that is desired to have in this meta, and move Goblinmount's attack up to 4 which can cover non-evolved 4pp drops without having to evolve it. 

If you need AoE, I'll advocate Humpty Dumpty as it can take out any growing neutral board from turns 1-4 with the only consequence of resetting the board for the opponent to act upon it and the opponent may have a 4 defense follower that is still alive. In addition, if it is buffed by Alice, it can be a 4pp evolve: deal 3 AoE to everything and then 7 damage to 1 enemy follower. I'd probably ever add 2 of them in a deck.

I'm more partial to Zeus over Andras as it will give ward + non-conditional storm for an extra play point, but having something on 9 to charge the opponent at is probably better for aegis matchups. Then there is Into The Looking Glass which can give any of the relevant followers aside from Andras the neutral tag in order to be a target for Poisoned Apple. Although, this would only open up Khawy as the newest value target for being revived and that can be too slow. I would maybe consider that over Bellringer, but I know her saving 2+ defense is desired. 

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Even without Alice Buffs Humpty is a pretty good idea in this deck. Its drawbacks dont mean much if you were planning on playing goblinmount the following turn anyway. Plus if you use apple on it you can threaten to nuke the board twice making it a pseudo ward. 

Also have you considered soul conversion? Sure you lack strong last words effects overall but its still a solid consistency booster regardless. 

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@Inquire I haven't considered Alice for this deck mostly because even though I have enough targets for it there isn't enough room to fit Alice and all the targets I want. I can hit Unica, Bellringer, Grimnir, Teena, Goblinmount, and Gilgamesh, which is 16 targets, but when you are playing neutral cards on curve and your neutral cards are dying the turn you play them then it becomes hard to justify using Alice to buff those cards. I don't have any copies of Alice anyways, so I can't put her in.

Humpty Dumpty is actually an interesting option that I haven't considered. I found that Foul Tempest was too inconsistent of an option to keep in the deck, but I probably could fit two Humpty Dumpties in the deck, but to fit it in I'd probably have to take the Teena out (although that may not be a bad thing in this meta since every follower caps at 3 health except for other 4-drops).

Andras is probably better than Zeus in this deck because it comes one turn earlier and the reliance on having shadows isn't normally a problem since only 2 other cards use shadows in the deck in Deathbrand (which replaced Foul Tempest) and Death's Breath. There are some problems when you don't have enough shadows for what you want to do (which is exactly why I have only 2 copies of Death's Breath in my variant now), but by turn 9 you almost always have enough shadows.

Looking Glass doesn't get enough value to justify its inclusion. You can't stick it on Andras because it costs 2pp and Andras costs 9 you don't want it on Odile because her only value is on evolve, you don't want it on zombies because their value is from Death's Breath's necromancy effect, which leaves Spartoi Soldier, Khawy, and Executioner as the only realistic targets. This is on top of having to put in a 2pp card that just draws a card, and that's not the type of value you want in this deck.

@Chappie I considered Soul Conversion, but I decided to give Nightmare Executioner a shot instead. The problem with Soul Conversion in this deck is that there aren't enough targets that you can afford to use it on. Nightmare Executioner gives you slightly less card draw on average (usually it trades into 1 thing and then it dies, whether it's to that 1 thing or to removal afterwards), but it also gives you a body and removal.

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I tested Lion Champion in replacement of Odile because she didn't seem to be doing much of anything, but Lion Champion didn't seem to do much either. The idea was to put Apple on it to make it an immovable ward, but it's not useful at all against control decks. I'm testing Balor now, and he seems to be way more useful, as he's both a board clear and hard removal in the same package.

I'm also testing 2* Humpty Dumpty instead of Teena, but I haven't pulled him out yet in situations where I'd need him.

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29 minutes ago, Aru're said:

I'm also testing 2* Humpty Dumpty instead of Teena, but I haven't pulled him out yet in situations where I'd need him.

imo you'll probably need to run Dumpty and Teena together in order to get enough frequency in draws. I usually do 2:2 (as I don't really want to craft another Teena) and see them fairly often in my rune deck. Although, since my deck runs plenty of draw power, 4 might be enough for me, but you may need to go more.

fyi, you should probably edit your deck list in the OP so any new people don't get confused with how the deck develops. 

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10 minutes ago, Inquire said:

imo you'll probably need to run Dumpty and Teena together in order to get enough frequency in draws. I usually do 2:2 (as I don't really want to craft another Teena) and see them fairly often in my rune deck. Although, since my deck runs plenty of draw power, 4 might be enough for me, but you may need to go more.

fyi, you should probably edit your deck list in the OP so any new people don't get confused with how the deck develops. 

You can afford to put 2 of each into your deck because your deck has a lot of card draw. My deck can't afford to put 2 of each into neutral control deck because I don't have space elsewhere and I have so little card draw.

I could take out a Nightmare Executioner, but I have so little draw elsewhere and it's too good of a card draw tool not to keep in the deck, especially since there aren't a whole lot of card draw tools that either need a board (which you never have), need a last words trigger (which is inconsistent against Havencraft) or is an amulet that does nothing to affect the board, which you can't afford to play in this meta. This is aside from the fact that Nightmare Executioner has actually been a really good card draw tool in a lot of cases, being able to trade up and cycle itself.

I probably should update the decklist in the OP.

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I recently won a game against Elana Haven that lasted a whopping 15 turns. It turns out that if you have enough wards, you don't need to handle your opponent's threats every turn, especially when you can flood the board with more followers than your opponent.

On the flipside, I recently lost a game against PtP Shadow where I somehow managed to get 2 Andras and 1 Gilgamesh in my opening hand post-mulligan. That's a brick if I've ever seen one.

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