tmp

Can Shadowverse survive WD?

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Posted (edited)

10 days into July and we got the first stats report as @Imperial Dane brought on other topic. Obviously no Shadowverse player wanted this to happen, but apparently this is one of the most disastrous anniversaries we've witnessed in gaming history as there is nowhere to run when the Wonderland Dreams card packs stare at us. Most cards have such gamebreaking potential i think the word power creep would be an euphemism.

The elders taught me that Cygames never touch released legendaries or cards from previous expansions, so with that in mind, I ask you all: Do you think Shadowverse will survive Wonderland Dreams? Personally i want to believe that it will, but some unprecedented measures should be taken. I'll risk to say that both western and eastern communities agree with me here.

Besides the obvious points (Going first is stronger than ever; Baphomet into Spawn of the Abyss has little cost for huge benefits; Goblin Leader, Alice and Big Knuckle Bodyguard severely punishes players that go second) there is even more game breaking potential in this set of cards. It's like the entire collection enforces the "Going First" benefit, with many cards that destroy the opponent's tempo before it even exists.

I think Shadowverse strayed from it's roots, where the 2nd player had a huge tempo swing on Turn 4 and all crafts had distinct peculiarities, and ultimately this made the game worse. From what I can tell from talking to elder players, this started on the Tempst of the Gods expansion with cards like Little Soulsquasher and Sibyl kicking fallen dogs hard. These roots I mentioned is the "something" that makes Shadowverse unique and makes people interested in trying it; Originally, it would reward resource management and deck building.

Personally, I think the entire design of Wonderland Dreams could not be worse. Lots of buffs, even more legendaries that just win games and little love to things that need it; Particularly, Swordcraft and going second. There are positives in this expansion, like the return of Earth Rite Runecraft and Havencraft's cards, but it saddens me that you could count them on a single hand. I've always had some issues with the game design from day 1 (Focusing strictly on mobile players, fast games) but it was entertaining and strategic enough to keep me going. This died in this expansion as there's too many cards to nerf in order to find a balanced metagame, and it will still feel weird since most of the cards are designed with entire archetypes in mind.

These are some dark days for Cygames, i wouldn't want to be on their skin, specially with all the salt and hate going around. I would also be pissed that there's negative evaluation on the content that was developed for the game's anniversary. I think this is the proof that they need to change the game design's course.

Start messing with legendaries. No one will complain about losing vials in the proccess (Some decks are built around them), but people will complain about uninteractive and "braindead" archetypes being prevalent in the metagame.
Start messing with older cards. When a new expansion is released and you thought something that already existed would be effective against a new card or deck, tune it up for the gameplay's sake.
Just stop pushing something in particular. Strive for balance. Neutralcraft isn't balance either. It makes many class-specific archetypes completely unviable.

People is annoyed and salty not just because this expansion basically sucked. They're annoyed and salty because it's expected for it to stay that way. And I don't want to sound overly harsh here, but I really think this expansion is a disaster card by card with a few exceptions, in a way it makes me question how dedicated Cygames actually is in Shadowverse, since they develop multiple games at once. If you asked me, i wouldn't mind playing 3 months of very experimental metagames with lots of changes going on if that's being done for best.

Unfortunately, Shadowverse is currently out of pulse. Right now we're all playing Firstverse, Aliceverse, Spawnverse, whichever you like. Cygames has the crash cart and they're coming for us, but will they bring us a thinking game or a braindead game?

Edited by tmp
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The claim that cards from previous expansions are safe from the nerf stick is false. Shadow Reaper was a card from RoB and was nerfed in WD. The claim that legendaries are immune to the nerf stick is also false. Skullfane is legendary and was nerfed in standard beta.

Now I believe that both of those nerfs were bad ideas, but they prove without a doubt that such things can happen. Being gold or purple or being from an earlier set is no protection from nerfs if Cygames determines that such are required. 

That being said, the current situation is more urgent than any previous nerfings have been. We aren't talking about one craft getting to the 30% mark of being overplaued on ranked. We're talking literally one deck from one craft having twice the playrate of all decks from any other craft combined. That's insane. But it's also justified because it's a deck with no bad matchups.

Let that sink in: there are literally no decks that have a positive winrate against the unstoppable juggernaut that is the Alice Cthulhu decks. There is no rational reason for anyone to play anything but Alice Blood on ranked because Alice Blood's worst matchup is Alice Blood. The playrate of  Alice Blood will continue to rise as long as Tove, Feria, and Spawn of the Abyss continue to be as good as they are.

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3 minutes ago, FrankTrollman said:

The claim that cards from previous expansions are safe from the nerf stick is false. Shadow Reaper was a card from RoB and was nerfed in WD. The claim that legendaries are immune to the nerf stick is also false. Skullfane is legendary and was nerfed in standard beta.

Now I believe that both of those nerfs were bad ideas, but they prove without a doubt that such things can happen. Being gold or purple or being from an earlier set is no protection from nerfs if Cygames determines that such are required. 

That being said, the current situation is more urgent than any previous nerfings have been. We aren't talking about one craft getting to the 30% mark of being overplaued on ranked. We're talking literally one deck from one craft having twice the playrate of all decks from any other craft combined. That's insane. But it's also justified because it's a deck with no bad matchups.

Let that sink in: there are literally no decks that have a positive winrate against the unstoppable juggernaut that is the Alice Cthulhu decks. There is no rational reason for anyone to play anything but Alice Blood on ranked because Alice Blood's worst matchup is Alice Blood. The playrate of  Alice Blood will continue to rise as long as Tove, Feria, and Spawn of the Abyss continue to be as good as they are.

Good points. I started on TOTG so that was just what some people told me in the discord.

I seriously think that once the Alice Cthulhu deck is on it's place, Alice itself will become the new Cthulhu. And that worries me a lot.

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I'm sure shadowverse will, me, myself, not so much, unless they start giving us a tonne more control for the next expansion, I do get very very sick of seeing the same bs day in, day out, I'd rather like for them to either slow the game right down, or just stop giving already aggressive crafts, like blood, sword, or shadow, even more aggressive options, it makes my inner Haven n Dragoncraft player cry cause it's still so far out of control, I'm finding myself simply not having fun, even when I win matches. 

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Posted (edited)

If bkb costed 5 mana he was balanced, compiting with baphomet for 5 slot, giving 2 player room and stuff.

Also why in a world feria evolve is AOE? O_O I was sure that it's single target and couldn't understand why people bithcing about it.. until yesterday. Full board spam into Feria evo is crazy. Just make it +1/+1 to a friendly follower. BAM problem solved.

Edited by zzMedVeDzz

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3 minutes ago, zzMedVeDzz said:

If bkb costed 5 mana he was balanced, compiting with baphomet for 5 slot, giving 2 player room and stuff.

Also why in a world feria evolve is AOE? O_O I was sure that it's single target and couldn't understand why people bithcing about it.. until yesterday. Full board spam into Feria evo is crazy. Just make it +1/+1 to a friendly follower. BAM problem solved.

Or +1/0 to all allies and make Feria's evo a 3/3. Alice could do the same. Dunno if that would fix all their issues, though.

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Well im  struggling playing control haven and nepthys shadow in ranked now 

I need around 5 hours to win 3 games with them and then , i switch to

spawncraft and it only take 30 min or less to win 3 games too lel , i keep emote sorry to my opponent when i win with that decks ,  but srsly every ranked is either blood or other decks with alice  packs , meme keep getting gone and gone . 

I remember when back at rob , i can barely win with  eidolon decks , but now i dont see any chance again .place for meme decks is only in unranked now too bad so sad

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3 minutes ago, Void said:

Well im  struggling playing control haven and nepthys shadow in ranked now 

I need around 5 hours to win 3 games with them and then , i switch to

spawncraft and it only take 30 min or less to win 3 games too lel , i keep emote sorry to my opponent when i win with that decks ,  but srsly every ranked is either blood or other decks with alice  packs , meme keep getting gone and gone . 

I remember when back at rob , i can barely win with  eidolon decks , but now i dont see any chance again .place for meme decks is only in unranked now too bad so sad

Know the feeling there, my control havens under 50% (maybe more 40%) no progress made, like, at all, aggro decks have it far too easy, makes me wonder why they even gave any sort of control tools this expansion if they don't want control to be a thing.

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Posted (edited)

29 minutes ago, tmp said:

Or +1/0 to all allies and make Feria's evo a 3/3. Alice could do the same. Dunno if that would fix all their issues, though.

Yes it will)

BKB is busted on curve, but if he was 5 mana, he became balanced in a way, that he is basicaly assault golem without sigil. Also beeing in 5 slots blocks baphomet. Wich makes deck more skill and control based.

Feria as Levi will keep her evo stats. AOE effect must be fixed. Like make it single target, or cut 1 bonus stat.. This card looks like catacomb. Mana nerf can actualy be an out. 3 mana 2 drop with powerfull effect, looks OK. You are keeping card "soul" and "purpose" reducing cancerness, via adding resource management aspect.

Edited by zzMedVeDzz

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Posted (edited)

Ya... makes me wonder what the developer is doing during this time. They had 3 months to design the expansion yet they overlook obvious imbalances. Adding to the insult, they are also giving class-specific effects to neutral, making the situation even worse. It time Cygames take a look at the entire cards collection and make a one off adjustment. 

Back to your question, Shadowverse will survive, there will always be people enjoying OPed meta decks, kicking everyone else **** and then brag about it. For me, that is just not fun.   

One question for the community. If Cygames makes a one-off adjustment without refunding nerfed cards in full vial, will you be interested? Perhaps they can compensate instead with card packs. Will it work?

Edited by shyhh

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6 minutes ago, shyhh said:

Ya... makes me wonder what the developer is doing during this time. They had 3 months to design the expansion yet they overlook obvious imbalances. Adding to the insult, they are also giving class-specific effects to neutral, making the situation even worse. It time Cygames take a look at the entire cards collection and make a one off adjustment. 

Back to your question, Shadowverse will survive, there will always be people enjoying OPed meta decks, kicking everyone else **** and then brag about it. For me, that is just not fun.   

One question for the community. If Cygames makes a one-off adjustment without refunding nerfed cards in full vial, will you be interested? Perhaps they can compensate instead with card packs. Will it work?

I feel the right thing for Cy to do is nerf at most two cards, even nerfing one card out of the Alice package by increasing its play points will have an effect.

As for comp, I don't even think that should be an issue. The reward is all the points gained by running the package. 

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Feria is obviously over the top. The power level is nuts, with potentially up to +6/+6 worth of stats on an evo. That's what you get for an activated Charon, but that card makes you spend 6 shadows instead of nothing. Also a 2 cost 2/2 is something decks are randomly interested in, but a 5 cost 4/5 is not good enough to see play on its own.

Of Feria's evolution was just "give +2/+2 to a single other follower" it would be about on par with Lyrial or Vania and sometimes people would play it and sometimes they would not. 

Both the power level and the paracitism of Feria are a problem. It's too good when your deck is full of neutrals and too insistent that your deck avoids low cost in-craft followers. Both have to change.

Alice fits too nicely into the curve and warps all decks around herself. If she was a 6 cost 6/6 with rush, she'd still be a good card - but only in decks that want to have t6 and t7 plays. If Alice was a card only B&B Forest and Ramp Dragon were interested in, she wouldn't be making the game terrible.

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1 minute ago, FrankTrollman said:

Feria is obviously over the top. The power level is nuts, with potentially up to +6/+6 worth of stats on an evo. That's what you get for an activated Charon, but that card makes you spend 6 shadows instead of nothing. Also a 2 cost 2/2 is something decks are randomly interested in, but a 5 cost 4/5 is not good enough to see play on its own.

Of Feria's evolution was just "give +2/+2 to a single other follower" it would be about on par with Lyrial or Vania and sometimes people would play it and sometimes they would not. 

Both the power level and the paracitism of Feria are a problem. It's too good when your deck is full of neutrals and too insistent that your deck avoids low cost in-craft followers. Both have to change.

Alice fits too nicely into the curve and warps all decks around herself. If she was a 6 cost 6/6 with rush, she'd still be a good card - but only in decks that want to have t6 and t7 plays. If Alice was a card only B&B Forest and Ramp Dragon were interested in, she wouldn't be making the game terrible.

Even just the simple changing of playpoint increases to Alice or Feris or even Gerbs would effect the whole package, I would imagine. Would definitely give a bit of breathing room as opposed to the "Sit back and watch this" currently happening.

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Hearthstone has gone through pretty bad things and usually for a lot longer, and that is still around. So i think shadowverse will be able to survive, but it has taken some of the sheen of the game if you will. Never mind the timing isn't particularly good with hearthstone dishing out a new expansion in a month and hearthstone is sharpening up it's own game after a lot of competition hit, so shadowverse can't afford a lot of mistakes like Wonderland dreams to put it mildly.

 

Right now their biggest issue is damage control and ensuring people don't go running to hearthstone. Secondly they need to re-locate their craniums from their rectums and scrap the current design process which has lead to this mess and work out something that will work better from here that does not lead to classes floundering mechanically while one steamrolls the rest.

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3 minutes ago, FrankTrollman said:

Feria is obviously over the top. The power level is nuts, with potentially up to +6/+6 worth of stats on an evo. That's what you get for an activated Charon, but that card makes you spend 6 shadows instead of nothing. Also a 2 cost 2/2 is something decks are randomly interested in, but a 5 cost 4/5 is not good enough to see play on its own.

Of Feria's evolution was just "give +2/+2 to a single other follower" it would be about on par with Lyrial or Vania and sometimes people would play it and sometimes they would not. 

Both the power level and the paracitism of Feria are a problem. It's too good when your deck is full of neutrals and too insistent that your deck avoids low cost in-craft followers. Both have to change.

Alice fits too nicely into the curve and warps all decks around herself. If she was a 6 cost 6/6 with rush, she'd still be a good card - but only in decks that want to have t6 and t7 plays. If Alice was a card only B&B Forest and Ramp Dragon were interested in, she wouldn't be making the game terrible.

I still feel that Neutral should not get buffs. That is just not the purpose of neutral class. If Cygames wish to make neutral independently playable, they could well design another class to complement neutral. Imo, neutral is getting too many of those OP cards and it makes balancing the game even harder.

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Just now, shyhh said:

I still feel that Neutral should not get buffs. That is just not the purpose of neutral class. If Cygames wish to make neutral independently playable, they could well design another class to complement neutral. Imo, neutral is getting too many of those OP cards and it makes balancing the game even harder.

Was my biggest fear during the prerelease info of WD. Pouring water into 5 glasses of whole milk gives you 5 glasses of watered down ur-milk that destroys its benefits.

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 Neutral is rather ridiculous, with its level of synergy, the other issue is it's all so low cost, it just pushes aggro decks that step too far, and pushes the control, craft specific stuff, out.

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They definitely pushed neutral too hard at the expense of other classes, swordcraft in particular since they ended up very much stepping on swordcraft territory without really compensating for it. also terrible legendaries *again* 

 

But hopefully they will have learned their lesson from this, if they haven't.. Then the game is doomed.

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2 minutes ago, Morrigan said:

Was my biggest fear during the prerelease info of WD. Pouring water into 5 glasses of whole milk gives you 5 glasses of watered down ur-milk that destroys its benefits.

When i first saw Alice, i told myself this is going to be the bomb. I mean the card is just so ridiculously good! Guess sometimes we do get much more than what we are asking for :) 

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Alice n co are generally fine, it's just they're too fast, if Alice was 7pp, she'd be fine, mean it does need dismantled, but then the game in general needs major  rehauling, like no points loss pre-master, cause tats bs when you lose 80% of the points you do win, and then constantly lose due to bull****, the game certainly needs to be made more formulaic, less RNG, etc, and more importantly, slow it hell down. I'm getting way too salty today over losing by turn 5 since I don't even have my deck actually set up at that point, but then, if the meta thing Imperialdane put up is any indication, best just go blood or not play the game at all, which naturally is no good for anyone. This month alone I've won enough games to get 9k points, still only actually progressed about 1.8k from last month, which for a game that's meant to be engaging, it's really starting to not be fun, even when I do win, it's more a relief feeling, than a wooooo I win, exciting! feel, I don't mind losing, but they do need to make the game progress more of a line from A to B, as opposed to just making it seem like a massive snails pace which is no good or fun.

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27 minutes ago, Othello said:

Alice n co are generally fine, it's just they're too fast, if Alice was 7pp, she'd be fine, mean it does need dismantled, but then the game in general needs major  rehauling, like no points loss pre-master, cause tats bs when you lose 80% of the points you do win, and then constantly lose due to bull****, the game certainly needs to be made more formulaic, less RNG, etc, and more importantly, slow it hell down. I'm getting way too salty today over losing by turn 5 since I don't even have my deck actually set up at that point, but then, if the meta thing Imperialdane put up is any indication, best just go blood or not play the game at all, which naturally is no good for anyone. This month alone I've won enough games to get 9k points, still only actually progressed about 1.8k from last month, which for a game that's meant to be engaging, it's really starting to not be fun, even when I do win, it's more a relief feeling, than a wooooo I win, exciting! feel, I don't mind losing, but they do need to make the game progress more of a line from A to B, as opposed to just making it seem like a massive snails pace which is no good or fun.

I highly doubt that they will dismantle too much of Alicecraft at all. Like I said, maybe one card from her retinue and something in Blood. WD was based around Neutrals, and if they smack it too hard, it would be too much.

I do feel for you lot in high ranks, because like it sounds from the posts, its awful atm.

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They're going to have to nerf Alice directly or at least hit several supporting cards, the alice package is just too strong and can easily snowball out of control. Going first it can be dealt with, the problem is that there are very few measures for dealing with it going second. It's why most decks have a terrible winrate going second, blood being the one doing best because it got a lot of those tempo cards that are also great evolved. My best guess would be to raise the cost of some of the bigger troublemakers so they can't be played on their current turns giving more time to set up and mitigate them but also making it harder for some decks to have a super curve. Like Tove into Goblin leader into Alice into Scarlet Sabreur.

 

Blood will also need a nerf and haven might need a pre-emptive one. But we'll see. Game isn't going to die from this, but they need to learn from this, that is the big imperative besides fixing the current issues, and that is fixing the systemic issues in their design process which has allowed this to happen.

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Posted (edited)

14 minutes ago, Morrigan said:

I highly doubt that they will dismantle too much of Alicecraft at all. Like I said, maybe one card from her retinue and something in Blood. WD was based around Neutrals, and if they smack it too hard, it would be too much.

I do feel for you lot in high ranks, because like it sounds from the posts, its awful atm.

As I said, Alice is fine, it's just, the game is way too fast, and way too mindless to even be considered "Competitive" mean, I couldn't give a rats backside, over pvp, I'd rather just get out master rank via te solo missions, or do like some other games do, like, completely different genre but Dynasty Warriors unleashed, their pvp is done via an arena crept it's just your team vs the AI controlled someone elses, that'd do me just fine, its like an RPG making you delevel cause s player character died. Lol, and I wouldn't consider A high rank, it's like mid game, I want the end game, aka Master, so then I can just play memes or decks I want since losing then doesn't mean jack squat, as it is ATM trying to rank in A is like beating my head against the brick wall, since every win I get. I lose 3-4 cause the games that over by like turn 6 when, it should be more like t12, there's always going to be aggro decks like we have with neutralcraft, but when there's no choice in playing anything else, that's when I get bored.

best way to look at it is similarly to the trinity in MMOs you have DPS (Aggro) Tanks (Control) and Healers/Support (Midrange), the tank should very very rarely lose to DPS, since the DPS shouldn't ever be able to keep up, the Support should rarely lose to the Tank, since it has the tools to control, while chipping away, and the DPS shouldn't ever lose to the Support, since it would outpace the limited Control a Support can do. Least that's my take on it.

Edited by Othello

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5 minutes ago, Imperial Dane said:

They're going to have to nerf Alice directly or at least hit several supporting cards, the alice package is just too strong and can easily snowball out of control. Going first it can be dealt with, the problem is that there are very few measures for dealing with it going second. It's why most decks have a terrible winrate going second, blood being the one doing best because it got a lot of those tempo cards that are also great evolved. My best guess would be to raise the cost of some of the bigger troublemakers so they can't be played on their current turns giving more time to set up and mitigate them but also making it harder for some decks to have a super curve. Like Tove into Goblin leader into Alice into Scarlet Sabreur.

 

Blood will also need a nerf and haven might need a pre-emptive one. But we'll see. Game isn't going to die from this, but they need to learn from this, that is the big imperative besides fixing the current issues, and that is fixing the systemic issues in their design process which has allowed this to happen.

Pretty much this, least as an Elana Haven, only way I survive alicecraft, aggro nowadays in general, or blood, is by going first and hope their hand gets slightly delayed a turn so I can actually reach turn 6 to Themis, or... hope that if I'm going 2nd they don't buff stuff fast enough that I could actually papa banish 2 things on t4 before it gets outta hand.

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@Othello

If you struggle in A Rank you don't want to be in Master.

The biggest difference between A and Master is: Your Opponents are a little bit stronger.

If you struggle try to improve and grow your collection first.

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