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Reno

Why are nerfs taking so damn long?

73 posts in this topic

20 minutes ago, Kinxil said:

Also Midrange sword became OP because of the lack of consistent heal and Albert existence, and now fell in oblivion because Albert is the only OP thing in Sword.... unless your opponent never get under 10. Because Albert is strong BUT Swordcraft lacks of others finisher solutions, Swordcraft ain't nearly strong now.

If it was OP because the lack of heal why wasn't it OP during the first 2 months of RoB.I am pretty sure the number of heals didn't change.

Midrange sword is in a fine spot right now, it just has a small problem: It has 2 really bad matchups, Ramp Dragon and Midrange Shadow. But if those 2 get nerfed is there a deck that can stop midrange sword? Is there a deck that can stop Forest? How strong is vengeance blood?

What is the correct nerf to keep midrange shadow viable, but no longer OP? Is a small change to Prince Catacomb enough? Making both Catacomb and Eachtar unplayable?

Probably something in between.

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19 minutes ago, Kharaxx said:

If it was OP because the lack of heal why wasn't it OP during the first 2 months of RoB.I am pretty sure the number of heals didn't change.

Midrange sword is in a fine spot right now, it just has a small problem: It has 2 really bad matchups, Ramp Dragon and Midrange Shadow. But if those 2 get nerfed is there a deck that can stop midrange sword? Is there a deck that can stop Forest? How strong is vengeance blood?

What is the correct nerf to keep midrange shadow viable, but no longer OP? Is a small change to Prince Catacomb enough? Making both Catacomb and Eachtar unplayable?

Probably something in between.

Why on the earth... Do you even read what I wrote. I mentionned making them a BIT worse, not killing them the Blizzard way. Dang. And Catacomb is fine, Eachtar is not.

If you really want a suggestion, again : Eachtar give +1 attack instead of +2 attack OR make each zombie 5 shadow.

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9 minutes ago, Kinxil said:

Why on the earth... Do you even read what I wrote. I mentionned making them a BIT worse, not killing them the Blizzard way. Dang. And Catacomb is fine, Eachtar is not.

If you really want a suggestion, again : Eachtar give +1 attack instead of +2 attack OR make each zombie 5 shadow.

I am talking about something between Daria nerf (a slight nerf to 1 card) and PtP Forest nerf (first making 1 card unplayable + a second nerf later on).

Your Eachtar nerf is 1 of many possibilities, but it's without any testing it's  impossible to know if midrange shadow would be to strong, to weak or balanced.

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Well with the current Japan vs Korea tournament going on, it's pretty clear the japanese community is not happy : https://www.twitch.tv/shadowverseofficial_jp

 

So one hopes something happens soon because any tournaments will not be worth it since we all know what will happen.. aand they will soon be announcing and hyping the next expansion, and that is going to be *rather* difficult with the current meta to put it mildly.

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2 hours ago, Imperial Dane said:

Well with the current Japan vs Korea tournament going on, it's pretty clear the japanese community is not happy : https://www.twitch.tv/shadowverseofficial_jp

 

So one hopes something happens soon because any tournaments will not be worth it since we all know what will happen.. aand they will soon be announcing and hyping the next expansion, and that is going to be *rather* difficult with the current meta to put it mildly.

i'm 100% not expecting a positive response from people that already activated their salt mode (from rob / now) @next expansion. 
as long as they follow the top--> second from top--> still kind of decent--> the rest got balanced stuff lmao. 
we are stuck at 2 rotating crafts every time + 'the rest that refused (/ can't) to play those 2 for whatever reason'

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6 hours ago, Imperial Dane said:

Well with the current Japan vs Korea tournament going on, it's pretty clear the japanese community is not happy : https://www.twitch.tv/shadowverseofficial_jp

 

So one hopes something happens soon because any tournaments will not be worth it since we all know what will happen.. aand they will soon be announcing and hyping the next expansion, and that is going to be *rather* difficult with the current meta to put it mildly.

I have no idea how to tell if the Japanese community is happy or not. But those games are actually pretty interesting. Sahaquiel Dragon and Midrange Shadow versus Stormramp Dragon and Aggro Shadow. Obviously it's Dragon and Shadow versus Dragon and Shadow, but the decks look like they belong to pretty distinct archetypes.

It kinda looks like the setup of the international tournament is that each player has to take in the same crafts, because it was Shadow and Dragon versus Shadow and Dragon and then Aegis and Dragon versus Aegis and Dragon. But the Dragon and Shadow decks conformed to some very different archetypes and I don't know what else you'd want out of such a tournament.

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Community is generally unhappy with tournaments, cause during this game's life cycle it usually consisted of 2 or 3 decks.  

Standard-Everyone brought PTP Forest and Midrange Sword

DE-Everyone brought Tempo Forest, Seraph Elena Haven, and Banner sword (Yes you read that right)

Bahamut-Everyone brought Daria and OTK Roach

So yeah.  You enter a tournament, you pay money, invest tons of time, most are going to do whatever they can to win.  

As for balance, as Kharaxx the local Leviathan was saying, it isn't so simple.  People always go well just do this, often killing the card, however even with a mild nerf effects can be dramatic.  During Daria's height, people were nerf Levi, Clarke, Daria, and Piercing rune all at once!  With atrocious examples of how to do that.  They did a mild nerf to Piercing rune.  Guess what,  Daria dropped out of top tier, and then died along with the entire Rune class with this expansion.  

In addition to not killing decks and even entire crafts, as has been said they surely fear some other deck just being broken in which case their efforts were worthless.  After OTK Roach and Daria was nerfed, Midrange sword was uncontested.  We went from a 3 deck meta to a 1 deck meta.  So it actually was much worse.  If shadow and dragon are nerfed we'll go to midrange sword uncontested as well, I posted the numbers earlier.  Well they could nerf Albert as well, but they've never nerfed a legendary during release.  Skullfane was nerfed during closed beta, but that is completely different.   Nerfing legendaries is likely something they don't want to do.  Thing is if sword is being nerfed, there is no question it is Albert that is the problem card.  

I don't know....doesn't seem like things can end well.  

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6 hours ago, fangore said:

So yeah.  You enter a tournament, you pay money, invest tons of time, most are going to do whatever they can to win.  

I don't think any of the tournaments have an entrance fee, if that's what you're saying.

Anyway, tournaments before were pretty unvaried, but I feel like they've been even more unvaried after the newest expansion. That's part of the reason why I stopped updating the deck archive thread, the barrage of Shadow + Dragon made me sad.

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6 hours ago, fangore said:

As for balance, as Kharaxx the local Leviathan was saying, it isn't so simple.  People always go well just do this, often killing the card, however even with a mild nerf effects can be dramatic.  During Daria's height, people were nerf Levi, Clarke, Daria, and Piercing rune all at once!  With atrocious examples of how to do that.  They did a mild nerf to Piercing rune.  Guess what,  Daria dropped out of top tier, and then died along with the entire Rune class with this expansion.  

If I'm not mistaken, most people asked for nerfs to one or two particular cards, but the card that people wanted nerfed varied from player to player. I personally thought Levi was overpowered and Piercing Rune was fine, but was made overpowered since Levi existed. I'm not wrong since that's my opinion, but I'm also not right since other people have different, equally valid opinions.

3 minutes ago, Yue said:

I don't think any of the tournaments have an entrance fee, if that's what you're saying.

Anyway, tournaments before were pretty unvaried, but I feel like they've been even more unvaried after the newest expansion. That's part of the reason why I stopped updating the deck archive thread, the barrage of Shadow + Dragon made me sad.

I can't imagine a tournament not having fees if they have a prize pool. Tournaments often times need to make some sort of revenue for the organization running the tournament, and stream revenue alone cannot offer enough compensation to pay for the tournament.

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18 minutes ago, Yue said:

I don't think any of the tournaments have an entrance fee, if that's what you're saying.

Anyway, tournaments before were pretty unvaried, but I feel like they've been even more unvaried after the newest expansion. That's part of the reason why I stopped updating the deck archive thread, the barrage of Shadow + Dragon made me sad.

Don't be sad!  

I'd also be interested if you have any ideas in how to fix the game.  The problems run much deeper than this or that strong deck.  How can we have a varied meta where every class is at least decent?

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Posted (edited)

18 minutes ago, fangore said:

Don't be sad!  

I'd also be interested if you have any ideas in how to fix the game.  The problems run much deeper than this or that strong deck.  How can we have a varied meta where every class is at least decent?

Well for one I wish they would buff some cards that don't see competitive use. Generally, I prefer the use of buffs over nerfs, and it could be a way to breathe fresh air into the game without destroying decks that people enjoy playing or releasing a new expansion every 3 months.

In the end though, a varied meta is a result of good design.

 

32 minutes ago, Aru're said:

I can't imagine a tournament not having fees if they have a prize pool. Tournaments often times need to make some sort of revenue for the organization running the tournament, and stream revenue alone cannot offer enough compensation to pay for the tournament.

The prize pools for a lot of tournaments are sponsored by Cygames.

Edited by Yue

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well the info for the update tomorrow is out. no more lightning blast enhanced and zell is a 4  drop now with a 3/4 body and prince catacomb is now a 4 drop. SO no more dragon and shadow oppression. supposedly

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27 minutes ago, Kura said:

well the info for the update tomorrow is out. no more lightning blast enhanced and zell is a 4  drop now with a 3/4 body and prince catacomb is now a 4 drop. SO no more dragon and shadow oppression. supposedly

I see Catacombs being a 4 drop as kinda buff to it. T1 skull beast->t2 spartoi sergeant->t3 bone chimera->T4 catacombs.  This actually allows more consistent on-curve aggression for shadow

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1 hour ago, Yue said:

Well for one I wish they would buff some cards that don't see competitive use. Generally, I prefer the use of buffs over nerfs, and it could be a way to breathe fresh air into the game without destroying decks that people enjoy playing or releasing a new expansion every 3 months.

In the end though, a varied meta is a result of good design.

 

 

Well looks like they went with nerfs, unfortunately.  I also much prefer buffs.  In other genres of competitive games buffs are commonplace and usually more frequent than nerfs, however in card games most don't buff cards like ever...which sucks.  So many interesting cards that aren't played cause they are too weak.  

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Bye bye zell we wont miss you , hello laura we welcome you 

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2 hours ago, Yue said:

Well for one I wish they would buff some cards that don't see competitive use. Generally, I prefer the use of buffs over nerfs, and it could be a way to breathe fresh air into the game without destroying decks that people enjoy playing or releasing a new expansion every 3 months.

In the end though, a varied meta is a result of good design.

 

The prize pools for a lot of tournaments are sponsored by Cygames.

In regards to the first point, I don't think it's always appropriate to buff cards that don't see competitive use. Jolly Rogers and Lord of the Flies are good examples of this since both of them have high-variance random effects that make them perfect for casuals but poor fit for competitive play. It's a bigger problem if they are strong enough to see competitive play than if they are too weak to not see competitive play as a result.

Even if Cygames did sponsor their tournaments I doubt that they would be able to give enough sponsorships such that the tournament can be ran without any sort of entry fees. In particular, several companies that create fighting games like Capcom (for the Street Fighter series) and Nintendo (for Super Smash Bros Melee and for Wii U) help sponsor major fighting game tournaments, but the tournaments still need entry fees for their players. That said, I might be wrong and don't know the specifics on how Cygames sponsors tournaments compared to other companies, so I might be wrong.

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5 hours ago, Alexx55 said:

I see Catacombs being a 4 drop as kinda buff to it. T1 skull beast->t2 spartoi sergeant->t3 bone chimera->T4 catacombs.  This actually allows more consistent on-curve aggression for shadow

Don't think so. Sergeant is always traded/removed. Bone Chimaera is a weak turn 3 play (you only have a 1/1). Catacomb is another weak turn if you play him t4.

If you are aggro, you don't want to have 3 mere 1/1 on the board on turn 4. Just think about the old Blood Bat aggro, that can vomit tons of bats AND do damage at the same time on turn 4. You are gaining stickiness, but you're paying it with face damage consistence. If you play Catacomb t4, there's no way you can kill your opponent with Cerberus t5 PHowl t6, as you won't be able to reduce your opponent to 11 hp only with your 1/1s.

If you play midrange, a t3 weak play followed by a t4 weak play will leave you open to aggression. Sure, you'll have a ton of shadows and 1/1 skellies, but you'll lose the initiative.

Nerfing Catacomb's cost almost kills him, in my opinion. Now Orthrus >> Catacomb in aggro, and Hell's Unleasher >> Catacomb in midrange.

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He is definitely dead in aggro, but midrange ? I don't think so, he just requires a bit more of the deck working towards him than before, rather than just being an easy to play auto-include. He's basically a rousing step with a body now, so you also need a better setup for it. I mean if Rousing step was only 3pp i think people would use it a lot more as well. But definitely dead in aggro, they want to play Orthrus there no doubt. It also means aggro shadow won't have the shadow surplus to play Eachtar and Eachtar in Midrange becomes trickier.

 

So while i think both archetypes will still have some bite to them, they won't be as overpowering or easy to play as they used to be.

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16 minutes ago, Imperial Dane said:

He is definitely dead in aggro, but midrange ? I don't think so, he just requires a bit more of the deck working towards him than before, rather than just being an easy to play auto-include. He's basically a rousing step with a body now, so you also need a better setup for it. I mean if Rousing step was only 3pp i think people would use it a lot more as well. But definitely dead in aggro, they want to play Orthrus there no doubt. It also means aggro shadow won't have the shadow surplus to play Eachtar and Eachtar in Midrange becomes trickier.

 

So while i think both archetypes will still have some bite to them, they won't be as overpowering or easy to play as they used to be.

That's for sure.

I might want to keep him and instead switch my Bone Chimaeras with Spartoi Soldiers now. At least they are a better t3 play than Chimaera and can also survive a turn to allow some Catacomb value. And they build shadows for Eachtar. Grimnir is also a solid t3 choice (I used to run 2x, I can add the 3rd).

I might need to remove my Cerb and Howls from midrange though. They were good as surprise burst, but now? For sure if midrange build is slower, Cerb has no place anymore, even if I only run her 2x. Howl could find a place, maybe 1-2x, but I'd probably prefer saving shadows for DB and Eachtar.

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Well i already run spartoi soldier, don't think i will take out bone chimeras since they will be more necessary now, i'll probably look to add in either Skeleton Knight or Zombie Buccaneer for more sticky followers, and probably aim to up the number of Dolorblade warriors, a lot of changes really when i think about it. A bit slower, but with more punch via big followers.

 

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I think midrange shadow is still fine.

Cata nerf hurts, its harder to build a giant Shadow Reaper, getting the shadows for Deaths Breath into Eachtar is also more difficult. However the other 3 drops are not bad at all and Eachtar is still broken, even with 3 Zombies a 9/8 for 7pp is still great. And if Reaper is only a 2pp 3/3 that's fine.

Not so sure what will happen with Ramp Dragon, Rahab, Sibyl and Grimnir are still there, but their wincon against Aegis and Dshift their boardclear against Seraph and Nep and Cataboards is gone.

It's kinda funny that the Dragon nerfs have the most impact in the mirror itself, the only matchup where I used both nerfed cards frequently.

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Posted (edited)

Nerfs announced. Time for my midrange roland x3. Im guessing ppl wil shift to storm dragon and nepyths deck.

The most significant change, i believe someone else has already pointed out in other posts, is lightning blast. It allows other control decks to now finally see some decent play

Edited by Powwow

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19 minutes ago, Kharaxx said:

I think midrange shadow is still fine.

Cata nerf hurts, its harder to build a giant Shadow Reaper, getting the shadows for Deaths Breath into Eachtar is also more difficult. However the other 3 drops are not bad at all and Eachtar is still broken, even with 3 Zombies a 9/8 for 7pp is still great. And if Reaper is only a 2pp 3/3 that's fine.

Not so sure what will happen with Ramp Dragon, Rahab, Sibyl and Grimnir are still there, but their wincon against Aegis and Dshift their boardclear against Seraph and Nep and Cataboards is gone.

It's kinda funny that the Dragon nerfs have the most impact in the mirror itself, the only matchup where I used both nerfed cards frequently.

dragon mirror with the same deck (flying baha/boros to face type) is the worst mirror ever. either it ends as fast as agro / it ends after 1 anime episode
even with the current zell, i just got stuck in a demn boros--> blazing / dragoon fervor / baha loop for like 10+ mins with my opp. no one can murder the other guy for so long...

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