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Why are nerfs taking so damn long?

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Posted (edited)

Shadow and Dragon are oppressive as hell and its like cygames don't give a single ****. Why can't they just hotfix nerf some of the broken cards? like the meta right now is so dry that I get bored just trying to finish my quests. There is just no reason I can think of why they couldn't just at the very least nerf some of the obviously overpowered cards that came from tempest.

Edited by Reno

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25 minutes ago, Reno said:

Shadow and Dragon are oppressive as hell and its like cygames don't give a single ****. Why can't they just hotfix nerf some of the broken cards? like the meta right now is so dry that I get bored just trying to finish my quests. There is just no reason I can think of why they couldn't just at the very least nerf some of the obviously overpowered cards that came from tempest.

There could be a reason.

The first I can think about is that this month we have Master rewards for climbing.

If you nerf a couple of classes in the middle of the month, you're actually disrupting the meta, and those who are actually grinding to get the reward (who are usually also the big "whales" who spend a lot of money in the game, and use those tier 1 decks) would be pissed off af.

If a nerf has to come, it will come at the end of the month, probably. This way the grinding for Master rewards won't be f*cked up.

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33 minutes ago, midgardsormr said:

There could be a reason.

The first I can think about is that this month we have Master rewards for climbing.

If you nerf a couple of classes in the middle of the month, you're actually disrupting the meta, and those who are actually grinding to get the reward (who are usually also the big "whales" who spend a lot of money in the game, and use those tier 1 decks) would be pissed off af.

If a nerf has to come, it will come at the end of the month, probably. This way the grinding for Master rewards won't be f*cked up.

Yes, you'd be correct on that one. Lol changing meta mid competition would be horribly stupid. 

 

I dont like nerfs. :/

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1 minute ago, Ocean said:

Yes, you'd be correct on that one. Lol changing meta mid competition would be horribly stupid. 

 

I dont like nerfs. :/

Sometimes they are needed, though. :) 

And I think that if Cygames wants to go with Master Rewards, they should organize that on the 3rd month after the release, not the 2nd one.

If we didn't had this Master competition, we could have had a nerf just these days. And the Master Rewards could have been completed afterwards, in a (hopefully) healthy meta.

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You'd probably have to ask the devs. But if i were to hazard a guess it would be because they don't want to make changes after just one month, they want to wait and see how things develop plus they want to come up with balance changes that don't just involve nuking the decks in question.

 

I mean if they just nerf after 1 month there could be the risk of some new decks appearing and causing problems. And then they'd have to nerf again, so this could be a case of measure twice cut once.

 

So personally i think that is the case here, at least that is the one that makes the most sense to me.

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Imperial Dane said:

I mean if they just nerf after 1 month there could be the risk of some new decks appearing and causing problems. And then they'd have to nerf again, so this could be a case of measure twice cut once.

Ok, if you nerf decks after 1 month - there is a risk of "some new decks appearing and causing problems". But the same thing will be with nerf after 2 month.

The main difference - 1st OP deck in our case will be rampaging for 2 months, so 2nd OP deck after that will just have 1 month and won't be nerfed ( "we don't have enough time and new set incoming" ). But that doesn't make 2nd OP deck non-existent. It can come back in next set.

If nerfs happened after 1 month, then we will have the probability of fixing all problem decks. But with current situation we have 1 nerf in entire set after 2 months, that can unleash another monster and it won't be nerfed.

If your reasoning is right and devs just don't want to nerf all problem decks - that can be a problem itself.

 

Edited by Ramires

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Nerfing is probably a bad idea. First of all, respeccing isn't easy. If they make Ramp Dragon be not good anymore, people are out more than just the vials they spent on Sybil. Hell, Cygames would probably refund those. But they won't get back the vials they spent on Bahamuts and Sahaquiels and such.

Secondly, if you hit the biggest decks with the nerf stick, the most likely result is that some other decks are going to become oppressive. An environment without Ramp Dragon is basically a playground for Aegis and an environment without Aggro Shadow is basically a free ride for Midrange Sword.

But most importantly of all: what would you actually nerf? None of the cards in Aggro Shadow or Ramp Dragon except maybe Sybil are actually unfair. Those decks are just piles of pretty OK cards that happen to have good synergy. When Orthus was spoiled a lot of people said it was unplayable (I wasn't one of them, I called it Aggro Shadow's Piercing Rune). It isn't a massively powerful card, it just happens to fit well in a deck that wants to be always attacking with small resilient threats. The problem is that other decks are missing key portions of their curve. Heck, even Ramp Dragon is missing portions of the curve, it just happens to not care because it can skip PP numbers due to Ramp turns.

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Quote

Nerfing is probably a bad idea. First of all, respeccing isn't easy. If they make Ramp Dragon be not good anymore, people are out more than just the vials they spent on Sybil. Hell, Cygames would probably refund those. But they won't get back the vials they spent on Bahamuts and Sahaquiels and such.

So how is that one supposed to make sense ?

A) Respeccing might not be super easy, but for the good players it's not exactly the end of the world either and the rest will catch on via netdecking. But you know, the point is, Ramp Dragon IS easy atm, why everybody is playing it and why it is dominating the meta which leads us to point b

B) It's not just that ramp dragon is good, it is that it is oppressive and dominating. They are not going to make it "Not good" and just writing that makes me cringe, they are going to hopefully make it *balanced* or at least closer to balanced compared to now, never mind all the other people who are out a ton of vials because they get absolutely wrecked by dragon.

 

C) Bahamut and Sahaquiel is not going to be magically bad after dragoncraft gets nerfed, hell dragoncraft was not doing poorly with ramp dragon before the expansion and i doubt that will change after any nerfs.

 

Either way, to  claim that nerfing is a bad idea.. is a bad idea. Because your argumentation basically boils down to "screw everybody else, let's safe those precious snowflakes the dragoncraft players who are the only true players" I mean that is what it boils down to, you don't give a damn about anyone else. Because if you exactly examined what you wrote you'd find another simple counter-argument which is.. The rest of the entire playerbase and all the other decks currently being utterly oppressed by dragoncraft.

 

Quote

Secondly, if you hit the biggest decks with the nerf stick, the most likely result is that some other decks are going to become oppressive. An environment without Ramp Dragon is basically a playground for Aegis and an environment without Aggro Shadow is basically a free ride for Midrange Sword.

Or you know, that doesn't happen.  You're rather making for some extreme examples that assumes that they nuke those decks, which they won't because daria didn't get nuked for starters. Ramp dragon is not going to go away, nor is Aggro shadow. Once more your logic seems to be "screw everybody else" or resort to extremist logic to somehow prop up the current very unsustainable status quo. Because Ramp dragon is not going to be removed, nor is aggro shadow or midrange shadow. They will be merely made no brainer decks (hopefully)

 

As for the last bit, well guess what they are going to hit, the enablers. Like they hit piercing rune or they hit Goblin mage. Again, they have done this before, it's almost as if you haven't bothered doing any research on the matter and just make up stuff. Because, any of these things can be with a bit of thought or research quickly answered and dismissed.

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If you look at the winrates Dragon is the most balanced craft and has 2 bad matchups, Shadow and blood xD 

50.07%

Apperently we have different opinions on oppressive.

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@Kharaxx Dragon have 50% winrate with 27.7% usage in SHADOWverse, while other classes got something like 45%. It's 2nd best class with 2 counters. If Shadow gets nerfed, but Dragon will remain untouched - we will have DRAGONverse.

 

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1 hour ago, Kharaxx said:

If you look at the winrates Dragon is the most balanced craft and has 2 bad matchups, Shadow and blood xD 

50.07%

Apperently we have different opinions on oppressive.

If you look at the other numbers you can put that smiley away, along with shadowcraft they make up more than 50% of all the decks played, in fact more than 60%! Dragoncraft being a 27.7% of the decks played at masters, so how about fully representing the numbers before trying to laugh them away ?  Just because it has a 50% winrate does not mean it is balanced, a coinflip does not make for good balance. By that logic pirate warrior during year of the Kraken was VERY balanced yet anyone could tell you it was horrible.


Especially when even a bit of research can tell you that ramp dragon is currently the most played deck and that some of it's worst matchups are currently shadowcraft. Meaning if shadow wasn't around ramp dragon and dragoncraft as a whole would be more dominant. So yes, i'd say that a craft that makes up more than a 4th of the current meta is oppressive. I mean ramp dragon itself is played more than a lot of the decks out of the the top 3.

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1 hour ago, Imperial Dane said:

If you look at the other numbers you can put that smiley away, along with shadowcraft they make up more than 50% of all the decks played, in fact more than 60%! Dragoncraft being a 27.7% of the decks played at masters, so how about fully representing the numbers before trying to laugh them away ?  Just because it has a 50% winrate does not mean it is balanced, a coinflip does not make for good balance. By that logic pirate warrior during year of the Kraken was VERY balanced yet anyone could tell you it was horrible.


Especially when even a bit of research can tell you that ramp dragon is currently the most played deck and that some of it's worst matchups are currently shadowcraft. Meaning if shadow wasn't around ramp dragon and dragoncraft as a whole would be more dominant. So yes, i'd say that a craft that makes up more than a 4th of the current meta is oppressive. I mean ramp dragon itself is played more than a lot of the decks out of the the top 3.

For me the problem in the meta isn't the high usage of Dragon and Shadow.

It's the low usage of Forest, Sword, Rune and Blood.

Let's do some research and try to find out why nobody plays Forest or Blood.

As you can see Blood is favoured against Dragon, but has below 40% winrate against Shadow.

Forest is unfavoured against Dragon with 45% winrate and gets stomped by Shadow, it has only 33% winrate.

This tells me they see no play because they lose so hard against Shadow.

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Yet they still lose to Dragon most of the time, in fact if we use that previous link you provided, you'll see Dragon beats most of the crafts as well except blood and shadowcraft, which tells us even if Shadocraft was nerfed, not much would actually change, dragoncraft would probably just be even more dominant since there'd be no shadowcraft to keep it in check. You can't really just ignore the high usage numbers since they very much tell a lot about it as well. Again, there is a reason Ramp Dragon is THE most played deck atm. And it's not because it is "balanced".

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I'm honestly thinking there will be no nerfs. When roach and Daria were "nerfed", there was a singular card that was clearly the thing thing that made the decks overpowered. Goblin mage made finding roaches too easy, and 1 cast cost piercing runes were just too cost effective when used with Daria. 

Mid shadow and ramp dragon just happen to have seriously strong synergy. I don't really think a singular card is at fault in either of the two.

People will tire of using these eventually, and the meta will change. Then we will all complain about something else. It's how things goes every time. First it was PtP forest, now it's mid shadow and ramp dragon. Next it will be something else. 

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There's no question that there needs to be some change in the coming patch. According to Cygames, Runecraft was nerfed predominantly because of their extraordinarily high playrate rather than the power level of Daria decks. Runecraft only had a 30% play rate at that time, which is about the popularity of the SECOND most popular class right now (with Shadowcraft having a popularity rate well over that).

The power level of the top tier decks midrange Shadowcraft and ramp Dragoncraft are pushing out a lot of lower tier decks. They are primary reasons why Shadowcraft and Dragoncraft have such strong presence in the current meta on ladder and why midrange Shadowcraft and ramp Dragoncraft (including its variants) are so dominant in the tournament scene.

The only reason I can think of for not having nerfs this month is that there's too much to nerf to playtest good changes to the cards. In Rise of Bahamut, it was mostly obvious that Piercing Rune and Goblin Mage were overpowered, but it's less obvious what's overpowered in the current top tier decks in Tempest of the Gods. It's less obvious how to change these decks, while there's also a lot larger balance problems that need to be addressed with these decks since they are so much more dominant than Daria Runecraft and Roach Forestcraft were in Rise of Bahamut.

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10 hours ago, Imperial Dane said:

If you look at the other numbers you can put that smiley away, along with shadowcraft they make up more than 50% of all the decks played, in fact more than 60%! Dragoncraft being a 27.7% of the decks played at masters, so how about fully representing the numbers before trying to laugh them away ?  Just because it has a 50% winrate does not mean it is balanced, a coinflip does not make for good balance. By that logic pirate warrior during year of the Kraken was VERY balanced yet anyone could tell you it was horrible.


Especially when even a bit of research can tell you that ramp dragon is currently the most played deck and that some of it's worst matchups are currently shadowcraft. Meaning if shadow wasn't around ramp dragon and dragoncraft as a whole would be more dominant. So yes, i'd say that a craft that makes up more than a 4th of the current meta is oppressive. I mean ramp dragon itself is played more than a lot of the decks out of the the top 3.

How about instead we keep laughing at you?

 

There are seven crafts. If all players were assigned a craft at random and every craft was exactly equally represented, then every craft would have 14.3% of the decks. If a deck was twice as popular as random chance would indicate, then it would be 28.6% of the meta. Anything less than that is just the range of normally popular decks. If a deck was 28.6% of the meta, then you'd be running into it exactly twice as often as you "should," and that really doesn't sound bad. In fact, that is completely normal. It would be very weird if there weren't some decks that were more popular and others that were less popular, and a factor of 2 for popularity is totally within a reasonable range. The numbers you are quoting are less than that. Not a lot less than that, but even so.

 

If you cry for nerfs whenever a deck is more than its fair share of 14.3% of the meta, you're going to have a bad time. It's inconceivable  that all seven crafts are going to have a popularity factor of exactly 100%. Some crafts are going to be more popular than others. Always and forever. Now we can argue about where the exact line of oppression is, but it's straight up laughable to argue that meta ownership of 27.7% in Masters is it. Oppression looks like the 30.3% of the meta that Runecraft owned in February 13th-19th.

And yes, Shadowcraft's 35.5% is pretty oppressive. But again and still: there's nothing actually broken in Aggro Shadow. It isn't putting up big win percentages because it has any unfair turns. Aggro Shadow doesn't even run Eachtar. Its big finishers are Cerberus and Phantom Howl, which have been around forever and aren't especially efficient. Cerberus is generally you spending 7 PP for a White General and a Blazing Breath - and both those cards are Bronze (and would cost only 5 PP together). The reason that Aggro Shadow is played so much is because it has card redundancy for all the key cost slots where you want to run multiples. 

At 1 cost do you want to run Goblin, Skeleton Warrior or Disciple? At 2 Cost do you want to run Unica, Lesser Mummy, Lurching Corpse, Dark Conjuror, Lyrial, Sexton, or Spartoi? All of those cards are good, you aren't "settling" for bad cards to run any of them. That is why Aggro Shadow is good. Not because Little Soulsquasher is unfair or overpowered, but simply because Shadow has all the pieces to make a deck that runs very consistently.

 

Discard Dragon is bad because it can't consistently draw discard effects and discardable cards. Only two discard fodder cards exist and you just aren't always going to have a Luxfang Kit or Trail of Light in your hand when it's time to play Gryphon Rider or Pucewyrm. It's bad because it can't consistently draw discard boosters. Only two boosters exist (Rites and Wild Dragonewt) unless you count Noxious Dragon, which you should not. And again, you just can't guaranty having a Dracomancer Rites in play when you want to play Dragoon. Aggro Necro is good because it doesn't have those problems. It plays a pretty good 2 cost follower on turn 2 pretty much every game and then it has good plays the turn after and the turn after that.

The solution isn't nerfs. The solution is finding out what underplayed decks need and then either making them from scratch or patching underperforming cards already in the roster to be less terrible and fill those needs. If Aggro Necro was filling up the meta by doing something unfair, then by all means nerf the crap out of it. But all it's doing is playing medium to high quality followers on curve and beating you to death with them. It's the perfect example of a fair deck that happens to be real good.

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1 hour ago, Aru're said:

There's no question that there needs to be some change in the coming patch. According to Cygames, Runecraft was nerfed predominantly because of their extraordinarily high playrate rather than the power level of Daria decks. Runecraft only had a 30% play rate at that time, which is about the popularity of the SECOND most popular class right now (with Shadowcraft having a popularity rate well over that).

The power level of the top tier decks midrange Shadowcraft and ramp Dragoncraft are pushing out a lot of lower tier decks. They are primary reasons why Shadowcraft and Dragoncraft have such strong presence in the current meta on ladder and why midrange Shadowcraft and ramp Dragoncraft (including its variants) are so dominant in the tournament scene.

The only reason I can think of for not having nerfs this month is that there's too much to nerf to playtest good changes to the cards. In Rise of Bahamut, it was mostly obvious that Piercing Rune and Goblin Mage were overpowered, but it's less obvious what's overpowered in the current top tier decks in Tempest of the Gods. It's less obvious how to change these decks, while there's also a lot larger balance problems that need to be addressed with these decks since they are so much more dominant than Daria Runecraft and Roach Forestcraft were in Rise of Bahamut.

Well the issue with Dragoncraft is simply put powercreep. It's slowly but surely just gotten better and better raw value until the point where it can just safely deal with most things if it draws the right cards, it'll also brick, but as seen with Daria, people are willing to risk that for the rest of the time being easily able to overwhelm their opponent. Which is what ramp dragon does, and did before tempest of the gods to be honest, it just had a few more chinks in it's armour, but the increase in strong wards and strong board clears has rather made Ramp dragon too safe. So at the same time it's tricky to specifically point out what needs to go since the issue is in part that currently it runs a lot of ramp cards that really have no tempo loss or tempo loss where it matters for ramp, good heal, big minions, pp cheats and strong board clears. There is very little counterplay to a ramping dragon atm because.. it got shored up with healing and solid removal.  So i'd probably look towards nerfing some of the more tempo related ramp plays and salamander's breath.  But basically just make it harder for dragoncraft to ramp safely which is the current situation.

 

The issue with shadowcraft is also the issue with Daria last expansion. It had a lot of synergies which none of the other classes really had. It's the problem that arises when they decide to push a craft and then not give anyone else anything to really compete with it. They really NEED to stop doing that, because it should be obvious by now it only screws things up. Because it means shadowcraft now has more options than any other deck in most cases unless they get a terrible hand, plus shadow already had some of the best burst and that just got better and safer to do. So you're looking at toning down those synergies a bit. But i'd maybe consider also having a look at some of the burst. Like maybe Phantom howl, increase the shadow cost on it. But it is trickier, in part because it is largely due to all the synergies shadowcraft has atm that allows it to be so potent. Had a few other crafts gotten some synergetic tools as well, they probably could have competed. Runecraft, Havencraft, Swordcraft. Any of the crafts really, but none of them did. Meaning shadowcraft, like Daria last expansion can just overpower the decks easily, because it just has more choices for off-curve play and generating value in different ways.

 

Daria is also an interesting example because with Daria they threw in the only evolution synergy card as well which then synergised with the rest of the class mechanics making it VERY good. Had the other classes received something like that, Daria might not quite have been as strong. But because of that, Daria was just the king of the hill.

 

So what needs to happen long term is for them to stop just pushing synergies on one class at a time and be better able to spread it out more evenly. Because otherwise we'll have these discussions every 2 months after the release of an expansion. Synergies are very important, it's why Shaman was so dominant for pretty much the entire year of the Kraken.. Because it had synergies where none of the other classes did and now the meta is overall a lot more varied due to.. more synergies for all the classes. 

 

But for now, they'll need to tone them down for shadowcraft.

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We'll Have to see on the 22nd if they actually address this issue.

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6 hours ago, Volcanon said:

We'll Have to see on the 22nd if they actually address this issue.

@Mouse Will something happen on the 22?

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Pretty sure mouse can't say anything. Otherwise it would already have been posted as official news.

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1 hour ago, Imperial Dane said:

Pretty sure mouse can't say anything. Otherwise it would already have been posted as official news.

Isn't he was the one who posted the anouncment? Even if it wasn't him, if we know the news that means he knew tham like week ago.

Also i didn't read nothing from him in a while, so get confirmation that he is alive is a good thing.

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24 minutes ago, zzMedVeDzz said:

Isn't he was the one who posted the anouncment? Even if it wasn't him, if we know the news that means he knew tham like week ago.

Also i didn't read nothing from him in a while, so get confirmation that he is alive is a good thing.

as an employee if you can't keep your mouth shut you will lose your job very fast

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4 minutes ago, Kyubey said:

as an employee if you can't keep your mouth shut you will lose your job very fast

Damn dude you are so smart, can you teach me senpai?

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5 minutes ago, zzMedVeDzz said:

Damn dude you are so smart, can you teach me senpai?

every sane company should have something like 'leaking company's info? prepare to get sued &/ fired' to their employee
nothing new
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i'm curious how many cards are going to be nerfed this time....shadow got lots of back up plans

and tbh, there's a good chance people migrated to ledger nep if mid got nuked. 4pp 4/4--> 4/4 is a good deal after all

rahab&/sibyl is the saviour of turn 2 pass from oracle, while boros is a super pain in the azz to non agro, mid & solitare. and there's that flying baha/boros to face too...

while sword &/ forest is waiting in the corner if both(^) got nuked 9_9 

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10 minutes ago, Kyubey said:

every sane company should have something like 'leaking company's info? prepare to get sued &/ fired' to their employee
nothing new
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i'm curious how many cards are going to be nerfed this time....shadow got lots of back up plans

and tbh, there's a good chance people migrated to ledger nep if mid got nuked. 4pp 4/4--> 4/4 is a good deal after all

rahab&/sibyl is the saviour of turn 2 pass from oracle, while boros is a super pain in the azz to non agro, mid & solitare. and there's that flying baha/boros to face too...

while sword &/ forest is waiting in the corner if both(^) got nuked 9_9 

Wolf forest and tempo forest with roach combo finisher is OK against dragon, but Y forest will back, scrumbert will back also Aegis will be played again.

So all not combo control deck are still ****ed.

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