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Imperial Dane

The Good, the Bad and The Grimnir. Neutral Followers in Shadowverse

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So one thing i rather always liked about shadowverse was that there weren't any Neutral cards that you could just throw down in any deck.. A bit like in hearthstone where every deck practically ran Ragnaros or Sylvanas if they could and Dr Boom before that..

 

Well that was the case until Tempest of the gods, Unica was a close one though, run in a lot of midrange and control decks, but not as ubiquitous as Grimnir. Before tempest of the gods you could usually figure what a deck was based on from the Neutral cards even. Aggro would run goblins or the Angel package (Lyrial and angel of the word) maybe both. Control and some midrange would run Unica, combo decks ran Goblin mage and maybe Feena. They made sense, they were there to augment to decks with some extra capabilities and make them a bit more consistent in some ways in what they were trying to do. But none of the cards were just *good*

 

Grimnir is. He is run in aggro, midrange, control and even some combo decks. His flexibility is completely and utterly insane, he is a 2/3 ward which is probably the best stats you can get on 3pp meaning pretty much everyone runs if they can. Especially with his enhance effect which also allows him to double as a finisher meaning the card literally has no real downside. He is just good. He is like the previously mentioned neutral cards, just so good you take no hit in running him.

 

And honestly that is terribly lazy and bad design. No card should be so great that every archetype runs him, sword already has Albert and he isn't exactly thought of as excellent card design.. and now we get Grimnir. While this certainly has something to do with the Enhance mechanic not being used very wisely i think that is a topic for another time. But when you put design a Neutral card that is just played in practically every single deck, that's just not okay. It's not fun, it's not interesting and it just turns the game towards playing on curve. 

 

I am admittedly not expecting a nerf to him though i do think he should get one.. Since again, he is run in like every deck, which again, is just downright DUMB. But i would like not to see more cards like these, they really have no place in shadowverse as they are just poorly and lazily designed cards.. Like Albert. And will ultimately only result in powercreeping to be dealt, which isn't fun either. So ideally nerfing Grimnir before that happens would be the best, but just having a stern talking to whoever thought Grimnir was an amazing card and not something that should have been relegated to the wastebasket would also be a good start.

 

I like cards that supplement strategies.. Not just cards that are really good on their own and even better with enhance. And Grimnir is just good with no real downside.

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Agreed.

If he was 1/3 for the same abilities and enhance he'd probably be more balanced towards control and combo style, at least.

It's just dumb that you can run a card like this in an aggro deck...

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Well the 1/3 stat line or a 2/2 would make him more managable i think and less of a no-brainer compared to now.

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Posted (edited)

If Grimnir has to be nerfed, then I'd like to see him becoming a 4pp 3/3 or 2/4 instead.

Duelyst (another Hearthstone-like CCG fyi) always do this "+1 cost, +1~2 stats" trick on overly versatile cards. By changing a card this way, the card would be available 1 turn slower, while it still keeps its functionality and general stat line, so the card would see less play, but not completely dead. This is de-facto nerf technique is a good thing to learn form Duelyst(and probably the only good thing you could learn from it).

Edited by Huck Fearthstone

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Oh no

He is the guy who saves me from Saha/Baha/Zell combo.

He is the guy who saves me from Roach combos.

He is the guy who saves me from Cerb howl. 

He is the guy who saves me from Albert.

I know it's a little bit unlucky he is that overused, but the game has so many strong storm follower, I am happy we get some good wards. Maybe his enhance should not deal facedmg, but giving every craft access to a 3pp 2/3 Ward was imo a good idea.

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19 minutes ago, Kharaxx said:

He is the guy who saves me from Saha/Baha/Zell combo.

Evolved 4/4 Zell clears 2/3 ward ( and 13 face damage incoming ) or am I missing something?

 

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10 minutes ago, Ramires said:

Evolved 4/4 Zell clears 2/3 ward ( and 13 face damage incoming ) or am I missing something?

 

Well maybe in case he evolved grimnir to naked 4/5 for defensive play 

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Posted (edited)

14 minutes ago, Ramires said:

Evolved 4/4 Zell clears 2/3 ward ( and 13 face damage incoming ) or am I missing something?

 

The second one or evo

Edited by Kharaxx

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1 hour ago, Kharaxx said:

Oh no

He is the guy who saves me from Saha/Baha/Zell combo.

He is the guy who saves me from Roach combos.

He is the guy who saves me from Cerb howl. 

He is the guy who saves me from Albert.

I know it's a little bit unlucky he is that overused, but the game has so many strong storm follower, I am happy we get some good wards. Maybe his enhance should not deal facedmg, but giving every craft access to a 3pp 2/3 Ward was imo a good idea.

It is still bad design, because a card that can fit into that many things is just bad. Hell is basically a neutral Albert at this point.. Busted and a solution to a problem that should have been fixed in some more intelligent manner. Because this is only going to lead straight into powercreep if not fixed. He is a very very dumb card and i am honestly already sick and tired of seeing him being used everywhere. It's bad enough i got to deal with so many goddamn ramp dragons and shadowcrafts.. but them tossing in grimnir everytime ? Aggro, midrange.. doesn't matter they use him. He is bad design when every deck wants to run him.

 

At which point he can have saved you from all sorts of things, i am sick and tired of seeing him used as an early game ward and as a lategame board clear that also damages face.  It is bad design and it needs to go away, we don't need this to turn into hearthstone. And cards like this are very much the path to hearthstone.

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Posted (edited)

ye. Grimmnir have no reason to be good, like he is. He is now an etalon of 3 drop. What you design should be better then his, if you want new cards to see play, wich is bad pattern. Overal enchance is a bad mechaic. It does't see play, unless enchance effect allowing to do face dmg.

Also he is part of a reason why other tempo/aggro decks struggle. Only shadow can profit from trading 2-3 minion in him, turn 3. Other ones will loose, or forced to run keen enchance/cheap removal.

Edited by zzMedVeDzz

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I hate nerfing cards because of reasons like bad art/lost because of it/text is so long/don't like a mechanic/don't exist in HS/don't have the card/seen it to often/don't like his voice line. 

I prefer balancing Decks.

A nerf to Grimnir to balance Dragon is fine, but I think the nerf to Aegis, Seraph, c-sword, c-blood, Nep is a bad idea, those Decks are currently not in the best shape, some of them barely viable.

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25 minutes ago, Kharaxx said:

A nerf to Grimnir to balance Dragon is fine, but I think the nerf to Aegis, Seraph, c-sword, c-blood, Nep is a bad idea, those Decks are currently not in the best shape, some of them barely viable.

As well as all other playable decks today xD

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9 minutes ago, zzMedVeDzz said:

As well as all other playable decks today xD

He isn't used in aggro shadow, SB Forest or Daria, only optional in midrange shadow and aggro sword.

It's a harder hit for the control Decks

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2 hours ago, Kharaxx said:

I hate nerfing cards because of reasons like bad art/lost because of it/text is so long/don't like a mechanic/don't exist in HS/don't have the card/seen it to often/don't like his voice line. 

I prefer balancing Decks.

A nerf to Grimnir to balance Dragon is fine, but I think the nerf to Aegis, Seraph, c-sword, c-blood, Nep is a bad idea, those Decks are currently not in the best shape, some of them barely viable.

Thing is though, a lot of those decks aren't in a bad shape because they desperately need grimnir, they are in a bad shape because Shadow swarms them or ramp crushes them. If those two get sorted out, then Grimnir won't be that badly needed either.

 

It's just when aggro decks, which include Aggro shadow decks (i've seen those) run him.. Then you know he is kinda hitting that spot where he just packs too much utility.  Like if only control decks used him, sure. No problem, but when even aggro decks run him ? Then he is just too good. 

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I agree he is really strong.

What a the bigger problem:

4-5 crafts use a certain neutral card

Dragon is the only viable control Deck

I think it would be fine if he gets nerfed at the start of the new expansion while those Decks, who need him get a replacement.

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Maybe a small nerf might be OK for him, but I don't think he's that bad.

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50 minutes ago, Kharaxx said:

I agree he is really strong.

What a the bigger problem:

4-5 crafts use a certain neutral card

Dragon is the only viable control Deck

I think it would be fine if he gets nerfed at the start of the new expansion while those Decks, who need him get a replacement.

It's not so much crafts as archetypes that is the problem. That is the key element. And Dragon is viable not because of grimnir but because it can ramp really hard and not have to worry about a lot of things thanks to a lot of heals, board clears and endgame which it can reach faster than anyone else.

 

Taking away Grimnir won't change anything there. Not until Dragon gets nerfed along with Shadowcraft. At which point Grimnir can be nerfed as well.

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I agree Dragon will survive without him, that's why I said dragon is the only control deck

I am not sure if Aegis, C-sword  and C-blood will survive, but nerfing those 3 Decks because one of their best cards is a decent 3 drop for midrange shadow (not even the best) is bad idea.

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3 hours ago, Kharaxx said:

I agree Dragon will survive without him, that's why I said dragon is the only control deck

I am not sure if Aegis, C-sword  and C-blood will survive, but nerfing those 3 Decks because one of their best cards is a decent 3 drop for midrange shadow (not even the best) is bad idea.

Yeah wards in this game are generally horrifically bad when compared to storm followers.  I hate neutrals being auto include or close to it, but I think they should hold off on that nerf until they give better class wards.  

Look at Haven.  Remember when Snake Priestess and Temple Defender were good?  Yeah now they are pretty awful.  Goblinmount?  Too slow now.  They just buffed removal and storm so much that ward often makes little if any impact.  Other than a few exceptions.  

Ancient Elf is still doing well, and stuff like Frontguard cause of its stickiness.  Rehab and Elf butler are good...but notice how much additional benefits they need to just be playable?  Both have the best stat line one could ask for in the 4 cost.  2/5 ward.  In addition Rehab gets extra attack for extra pp, and Butler get its cost reduced by 3 (!) for every card 6 played.  

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Have to say I agree. The card is just a bit too versatile in its current state. Perhaps changing his enhance effect slightly or lowering his attack a bit would be in order.

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yesterday lost to a shadow. I played with control, and he played aggro. Turn 9 I stabilezed with 2 or 3 wards and 3 hp. Dude topdecked grimmnir, I lost my **** at that moment.

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Just drop control ( if it's not Dragon ) - problem solved))

 

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1 hour ago, Ramires said:

Just drop control ( if it's not Dragon ) - problem solved))

 

I was playing nepnep. This was BS lose, I'm not agree to lose on those turms

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14 hours ago, Dergonu said:

Have to say I agree. The card is just a bit too versatile in its current state. Perhaps changing his enhance effect slightly or lowering his attack a bit would be in order.

Lowering his attack would certainly discourage aggro decks from running him since otherwise they get a good agressive ward that can be played on turn 3

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