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Tako

Had tons of fun playing last expansion but this expansion is just bad

202 posts in this topic

The only two classes being played are dragoncraft and shadowcraft.

Things that this expansion did wrong:

1. lightning blast's existence. Even if it isn't played too often, just because it exists. Removal of deck archetypes

2. Grimnir, giving dragon access to more aoe clears along with face damage

3. Zell. Why is this card in the game? They already had genesis dragon but its so hard to keep up with their beat down.

The only class that can keep up with dragon's multiple AOE clears is shadowcraft currently. Dragoncraft is so oppressive to the point that you don't see any other decks other than aggro variant or shadowcraft because they simply cannot keep up with them. 

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I'm not convinced Lightning Blast and Grimnir are actual problems, as they're usually only relevant in games that go to turn 8 — let's face it, most games vs control are decided by then. The only card I feel is a problem from Dragon is Zell — I'd change his text so he can only give Dragoncraft followers Storm. Storming 13/13s is possible (Sahaquiel, Servant of Darkness) and doesn't seem healthy to me.

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13 minutes ago, ScrotieMcB said:

I'm not convinced Lightning Blast and Grimnir are actual problems, as they're usually only relevant in games that go to turn 8 — let's face it, most games vs control are decided by then. The only card I feel is a problem from Dragon is Zell — I'd change his text so he can only give Dragoncraft followers Storm. Storming 13/13s is possible (Sahaquiel, Servant of Darkness) and doesn't seem healthy to me.

I'm not convinced that storming 13/13's is a problem, but I do agree that Dragoncraft being able to give Bahamut storm is a problem because Dragoncraft loses nothing for it since they already put the Sahaquiel package into their deck and can easily replace whatever 2-drops they previously ran with Zell. Bloodcraft being able to give Servant of Darkness storm with Laura or Shadowcraft being able to play Deathly Tyrant with its necromancy effect both seem rather fair because these cards need to focus their decks around their respective win conditions and have a relevant secondary cost to them (shadows for Tyrant, vengeance for Servant/Laura combo).

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It's combinations of problematic things that lead up to being an oppressive deck. They don't fear combo decks such as seraph, they can aoe clear every turn, even damaging them with grimnir, and being able to heal. Then on top of that they have access to strong storm cards. The only deck that goes toe to toe is shadowcraft which has good matchup across most decks, hence you have the 2 class meta atm. 

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I'm having success against Dragon with a Forrest deck so wouldn't say the only class

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I play a more control oriented, grindy version of the dragon deck and I love it.  No problem at all supporting the nerfing of zell because I don't play it in my deck, and dislike storm dragon anyways. Also will attest that even though I'm still lowly ranked my only losses have come to a swordcraft deck and forestcraft, 2 in my last 20ish games.  The swordcraft was an honest loss, I drew only ramp and bad cards (zell and forte) and just got outraced by multiple Albet, Iwin Sabers rips after a stalled mid-game.  Forest craft I made a huge misplay but it was a tight game anyways so not convinced I would have pulled it off even if I hadn't misplayed.  

Have not yet seen any aegis haven running test of strength, so I'm not sure how that matchup goes.   In any game with shadowcraft where we both brick or both draw well, I think I'm advantaged due to an abundance of ward and healing, with the options of lots of aoe and banish effects. 

Either way, the deck I play makes me happy.  It's not completely an MtG Blue Draw-Go deck but it's the closest I've ever found in SV/HS. I know that's probably why most people seem to hate it, but my fun is also valid so I'll enjoy it while I have it.  I think decks that go face and win on t5 are anti-fun, cancerous, and oppressive and whatever other hot-buzzwords people use to describe decks they hate.  And again I'm not Masters or AA so who knows if what I play is even viable in high leagues.  

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, AshVandal said:

I play a more control oriented, grindy version of the dragon deck and I love it.  No problem at all supporting the nerfing of zell because I don't play it in my deck, and dislike storm dragon anyways. 

Well then, no particular interest in nerfing you, at least not if we care about data.

Screenshot_2017-04-14-07-35-13.thumb.png.d28a1f9274bf1e4d44c739a4d771b3bb.png

There's clearly no major balance issue with Ramp Dragoncraft unless you add the word "Storm" to it. That's why only the Storm cards in Ramp Dragon should be considered for correction.

Screenshot_2017-04-14-07-44-59.png

No need to nerf Aegis.

Screenshot_2017-04-14-07-36-39.thumb.png.237d8beeced8bdcc110e8aca6aecf9f8.png

Considering that Aggro Shadow has about the same winrate as Face Dragon, probably no need to nerf Shadow. If it was, a nerf that hits Midrange harder than Aggro would be preferred.

Edited by ScrotieMcB

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38 minutes ago, ScrotieMcB said:

Well then, no particular interest in nerfing you, at least not if we care about data.

Not sure if sarcasm.  Storm is the bigger "problem" right? 

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-op mentioned sc & dc
--all cards listed are from dc from some reasons
---if lb seriously kill some type (nep), don't play anything except aegis deck. because themis literally kills everything except amulet + lb banishing amulet&follower.

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Storm Ramp has a 3% usage or so.

Unlucky he quits game because he plays against the op Dragon every 30th game.

If you play 10 games a day you face it about twice a week.

Out of 7 Ramp Dragons 1 is a storm Ramp. I small pretty sure most player can't say if they faced one of the 6 Ramp or the Storm Ramp, I am not sure if the program can.

What card says "I am storm Ramp", what card says "I am Ramp?"

Storm is usually additional Storm followers, Ramp is additional neutral package, but most decks have both.

What do you think is more likely:

Program can't identify Storm Ramp and it counts as Ramp if they don't play their storm?

Or 6 out of 7 dragon player play the weaker version?

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1 hour ago, Kharaxx said:

Storm Ramp has a 3% usage or so.

Unlucky he quits game because he plays against the op Dragon every 30th game.

If you play 10 games a day you face it about twice a week.

Out of 7 Ramp Dragons 1 is a storm Ramp. I small pretty sure most player can't say if they faced one of the 6 Ramp or the Storm Ramp, I am not sure if the program can.

What card says "I am storm Ramp", what card says "I am Ramp?"

Storm is usually additional Storm followers, Ramp is additional neutral package, but most decks have both.

What do you think is more likely:

Program can't identify Storm Ramp and it counts as Ramp if they don't play their storm?

Or 6 out of 7 dragon player play the weaker version?

Before that, what quantify as storm ramp dragon? Does deck have to run all the following 10pp combo: forte+urd, zell+ouro, wyvern->zell+Bahamat, and Genesis?

I think most dragon player have a in between version of storm ramp, neutral ramp, and ramp - I still envy the Saha engine with lucifer and able to pull 9pp Saha Zell Baha/Isre combo.

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4 hours ago, AshVandal said:

Not sure if sarcasm.  Storm is the bigger "problem" right? 

Yep. There was no sarcasm (this time).

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3 hours ago, Kharaxx said:

Storm Ramp has a 3% usage or so.

Unlucky he quits game because he plays against the op Dragon every 30th game.

If you play 10 games a day you face it about twice a week.

Out of 7 Ramp Dragons 1 is a storm Ramp. I small pretty sure most player can't say if they faced one of the 6 Ramp or the Storm Ramp, I am not sure if the program can.

What card says "I am storm Ramp", what card says "I am Ramp?"

Storm is usually additional Storm followers, Ramp is additional neutral package, but most decks have both.

What do you think is more likely:

Program can't identify Storm Ramp and it counts as Ramp if they don't play their storm?

Or 6 out of 7 dragon player play the weaker version?

If you see Forte, Genezis - it's storm. If Israfil - Ramp.

 

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Posted (edited)

9 minutes ago, Ramires said:

If you see Forte, Genezis - it's storm. If Israfil - Ramp.

 

And if they use both?

And if they play neither?

I know which of my Decks is the storm ramp and which one the ramp, it's harder with the decks of my opponent

Edited by Kharaxx

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6 minutes ago, Ramires said:

If you see Forte, Genezis - it's storm. If Israfil - Ramp.

 

I have 2 Forte, 1 Genesis, and 2 Israfil in the same deck.

I must be special.

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2x Blazing Breath

3x Unica

2x Zell

3x Dragon Oracle

3x Breath of the Salamander

3x Grimnir

3x Rahab

3x Sibyl

2x Draconic Fervor

2x Dark Dragoon Forte

1x Lightning Blast

3x Sahaquiel

2x Lucifer

2x Ouroboros

2x Israfil

3x Bahamut

1x Genesis Dragon

 

^ I haven't been able to play ramp dragon until today because today is when I first crafted a bunch of the legendaries (had 1 sibyl and no ouroboros or israfils).  This is the deck I came up with based on my meta and what has/hasn't been working for me.  What the **** would you call this?

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Posted (edited)

It should be noted that the winrate for both Storm and Neutral Ramp Dragon are a bit inflated due to them having very similar decklists.  

Because of this people have difficulty telling them appart difference at first glance.

So in reality Storm Ramp's winrate should be slightly lower than it actually is.

As well as Neutral Ramp's being higher.

Edited by Aridwolverine

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Ok, ok, there are hybrid decks. Tha's why I check winrates of crafts, not decks.

 

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Just now, Ramires said:

winrates of crafts, not decks.

 

Shadow as a whole has a 55% win rate.  If we take out Midrange Shadow, it has a 53% win rate.

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2 minutes ago, Jack42 said:

Shadow as a whole has a 55% win rate.  If we take out Midrange Shadow, it has a 53% win rate.

http://shadowlog.com/trend/2017/14/4/

53,7% yeah. But why do we need to take Midrange Shadow out? It has insane 59.9% winrate. If we will take this out - we will be hiding the problem)))

 

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Just now, Ramires said:

http://shadowlog.com/trend/2017/14/4/

53,7% yeah. But why do we need to take Midrange Shadow out? It has insane 59.9% winrate. If we will take this out - we will be hiding the problem)))

 

You just said that you look at the winrates of crafts, not decks.  The point is that Midrange Shadow has an insane win rate.  The last data I've looked at (in English) shows that it shifts the win rate of the entire class by roughly 2%.  Shadowlog is probably more up to date but still....

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I usually count simmilar decks together.

It's unlikely Daria's winrate was so high because it got identified as ER.

Midrange shadow will not be identified as Nep, but maybe as aggro (not sure on this one, but they are simmilar), but if we count those 2 together they are the most used deck (around 20% usage) with about 57% winrate...

The only argument I have for not nerfing midrange shadow is: The stats are from week 2, that's not a good argument at all.

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2 minutes ago, Jack42 said:

You just said that you look at the winrates of crafts, not decks.  The point is that Midrange Shadow has an insane win rate.  The last data I've looked at (in English) shows that it shifts the win rate of the entire class by roughly 2%.  Shadowlog is probably more up to date but still....

Are you sure, that there is no mislabeling issue as with Dragon? The only way to be 100% sure about midrange - Unica and Breath.

1 minute ago, Kharaxx said:

The only argument I have for not nerfing midrange shadow is: The stats are from week 2, that's not a good argument at all.

Yeah, new stats will be on Monday, but I doubt, that anything will change.

 

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Posted (edited)

I am 100% sure there is a labeling issue with Dragon.

Edit: I'm also 100% sure that people are playing bad decks and playing like ***.

Edited by Jack42

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Posted (edited)

7 minutes ago, Kharaxx said:

The only argument I have for not nerfing midrange shadow is: The stats are from week 2, that's not a good argument at all.

How about this:

I don't think a 59% win rate is a problem, without data suggesting that something else problematic is going on.  5 classes have a popular deck with a 52+% win rate.  The only ones that don't are Haven, which is hovering around 50% with a couple things, and Runecraft, which is hovering around Priest tier.  Nothing except slow *** control decks is being oppressed, and Runecraft is trash b/c it's basically not gotten anything good in the new stuff.

I would also say that all the win rates are still inflated because people are still playing trash decks and a lot of them.  The best decks for 6 out of 7 classes cannot maintain a greater than 50% win rate forever.  At least not at the current level of popularity.  Eventually something is going to give.

What is particularly wrong with that meta?

Edited by Jack42

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